Hi, Not sure where to put this besides this thread. Anyway, thinking about the ad placed in the Chronicle two days after Manalli died – "ZODIAC, your partner is in DEEP REAL ESTATE. You’re next. The Imperial Wizard can save you. Surrender to him or I’ll terminate your case. R.A.". Does anyone know the guidelines/deadlines to placing an ad at that time? I remember back as soon at the late 90’s/early 2000’s (before massive internet use) you had to call or write or visit the newspaper to place an ad. Also, i remember there was a deadline for submitting the ad. Example is ad has to be submitted at 5pm monday and new ads start on wednesday or something like that. Just wondering if its even possible for someone to get that ad into the paper so soon after Manalli’s death. If the ad had anything to do with him (chances are slim). Maybe someone with access to the SF chronicle from that time period could see if there is any info in the paper about submitting personals. Just a thought.

You guy’s find anything else interesting?

Hi, Not sure where to put this besides this thread. Anyway, thinking about the ad placed in the Chronicle two days after Manalli died – "ZODIAC, your partner is in DEEP REAL ESTATE. You’re next. The Imperial Wizard can save you. Surrender to him or I’ll terminate your case. R.A.". Does anyone know the guidelines/deadlines to placing an ad at that time? I remember back as soon at the late 90’s/early 2000’s (before massive internet use) you had to call or write or visit the newspaper to place an ad. Also, i remember there was a deadline for submitting the ad. Example is ad has to be submitted at 5pm monday and new ads start on wednesday or something like that. Just wondering if its even possible for someone to get that ad into the paper so soon after Manalli’s death. If the ad had anything to do with him (chances are slim). Maybe someone with access to the SF chronicle from that time period could see if there is any info in the paper about submitting personals. Just a thought.

That is a very good point!! I do have an old Chronicle or two laying around. This one is from 1971 and what I’ve copied gives the rates and contact info but does not say anything about once your ad is place, how soon it will run in the paper for any category.

I contacted Kevin Fagan from the SF Chronicle, and he researched this personal ad. Sure enough, just as I figured, there are NO RECORDS from way back the about who placed the ad, or any details.

One possibility, is that Manalli himself set the ad up the day before, or the day of his death, and it ran for the first time the day after he died. ‘If’, and I know it’s a big ‘if’, Manalli placed that ad, why would he? Was he Zodiac? Was he involved in writing the Zodiac letters? Was he warning somebody else,a partner? In Graysmith’s book, he touches on(but never fully explains)a possible connection between ALA & Manalli.

Quote Morf.

Found this post by Howard Davis on an old thread:

"I am researching the possibility that "rh" could stand for R.H.Blyth,a poet that lived in Japan, who promulgated an Oriental form of poetry called Haiku.
There were groups in S.F.,Berkeley,Los Angeles and elsewhere,that were very interested in R.H.s work and the Haiku form of poetry in the 60’s.
I have several reasons for holding this premise up for inspection,but I am ready to drop it PDQ!I want to see what you think.
The Haiku could explain the unusual structure and content of the desk poem and that mysterious rh at the end.
We do know Z was into the Mikado,a play with a Japanese background.There is that oriental like character in the 1/29/74 note"

If Manalli mentioned BLYTH in one of his letters,that would be interesting.

This is what forum’s are for. So that you can go back and find something because it possibly might be relevant to something you are thinking about now. I wasn’t thinking about this nor was I thinking about Manalli yet here I am again. As per usual ended up having a another google images adventure like I did with that whole Whitey Bulger, the forger and alcatraz thing.

This one started because of something morf sent me to have a look at. A first day naval cover. I thought I’d then just have a look for similar images on line to look at writing styles on them. Didn’t find anything. Then I thought I try "vallejo letters 1960’s" as a search. Naturally most of that result brings up Zodiac related material. A bit of a sad legacy for Vallejo in that respect. Nothing again but I like to look at every image that catches my eye even if it’s not directly related to what I’m looking for. I spotted this.

Infant killer, glasses. You get why it caught my attention. Enough to make me visit the page to find out what it was and who wrote it. Turns out it was someone called Sinclair Beiles.

http://www.artsjournal.com/herman/2012/ … urkey.html

So I glanced through the page. look at the other part of the above poem/story. It’s language the words. I thought Mikado. Don’t know about anyone else. Hmmmm ok might be worth looking into. Did a google image search lol, again. Was mildly struck by some of the imagery used on the covers of his published works but one caught my attention. Actually another one did as well but it’s not pertinent to this adventure. Here’s the one that is.

I recognised this because of Manalli. The image used is by the artist Antonin Artaud. Now I would need to do more reading concerning that but it seems quite clear to me that the reason the image was used is because Artaud was an integral part of that whole beat poet/artisitc scene back in the 60’s along with all the other guys associated with it and his name is oft used/dropped in, amongst their’s in mentioning.

"If there is still one hellish, truly accursed thing in our time, it is our artistic dallying with forms, instead of being like victims burned at the stake, signaling through the flames"

That is an Artaud quote that Manalli liked, even loved, so much that he had it on his wall (at work IIRC) and he says it makes him cry. I don’t think it’s a big leap to assume that Manalli may have been aware of and even read the works of these poets if he was aware of Artaud.

Now…. I’m kinda telling this back to front because I wasn’t even thinking about Manalli. Yes the Artaud thing made me think of him but there’s more and I’ll get to it very soon lol.

First though I want to say that once I started look at Sinclair Beiles and his stuff the primary thought in my head was. This is interesting because I hadn’t ,until tonight, found any poetry that really struck me as being similar to the nature and content of the desk poem. I wondered, just maybe this might go somewhere. Like anything, I might think these are kinda interesting but you can all see what you think. It’s feels to me closer in tone and content to anything else read regarding being similar to the desk poem. The type of poetry that Zodiac may have been reading. Here’s two more and I’ll post the page they came from so you can read the other stuff. It’s a blog page about him.

At the time of the Christmas cut sales

At the time of the Christmas cut sales
Slash, in red, screamed at an angle
Across the shopwindows behind which lifelike puppets sat
Made festive with glitter and tinsel.
Overnight to everyone’s amazement the puppets changed their price tags
And no-one could afford to buy them.
The tinsel and glitter turned into a kind of camouflage.
From their pulpits priests announced that infant Christ
Had thrown an elaborate tantrum
And was spoiling Christmas.
Many Worlds shut down.
All that was left was printer’s ink
For fingerprints.
This year many martyrs were manufactured
Not for export.
The electricity bills at police stations increased unaccountably.

On the ninth floor

On the ninth floor
it was on the ninth floor where they plotted
on the ninth floor
the top of the Baobab Hotel
where the gleaming razors were passed out
to the blackfaced maids
from the ninth floor from the ninth
they descended when dawn was lifting its coffin lid
every throat was slit
from the ninth floor
they walked with silent smiles to the suburbs
they scattered
they threw off their clothes
and leaped into the swimming-pools
from the ninth floor Christ descended
and blessed them with his sword.

This is the bit that brought me to this thread to post though. I was already pondering someone having mentioned Haiku in a post somewhere before I even read this bit. It’s on the page as well, second entry, which I will post the link to to after this.

Richard Wright, haiku and Sinclair Beiles
"In 1959, he (Richard Wright) was introduced to haiku by Sinclair Beiles , a young South African poet who loved its form. Beiles was living in Paris and associating with other poets of the ‘Beat generation’ such as Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, William Burroughs and Gary Snyder. Beiles’s and the Beat poets’ interest in Zen led Wright to the knowledge of haiku. Because the Beat Hotel was in the Latin Quarter and Wright lived very close to the hotel, Wright often frequented the hotel bar….Wright borrowed, from Sinclair Beiles, RH Blyth’s four volumes on the art and history of the haiku and its relationship to Zen philosophy and settled down to rediscover his old dream of oneness with life…"

(from The Richard Wright Encyclopedia, Jerry W Ward, Robert J Butler)

http://whowassinclairbeiles.blogspot.co.uk/

I didn’t even remember the post I have quoted from morf at the beginning of this post. I did make note of RH in my head for obvious reasons. I came here and did a search for Haiku. And whaddya know. Back to Fred.

So does Fred mention RH Blyth. No but he does mention Artaud and Zen and I have no problem believing he could have read Beiles. Either way I just found it coincidental that it came back here.

If again, nothing else, this exploration of Fred has led me to find something that could have been an influence to Zodiac in the sense of a literary source.

Wow, that’s some good digging Trav. Good find,I didn’t even remember making that post.

Funny you mnetion, ‘ZEN’, there was a house on Jackson St in San Fran(forget the address off hand),and the resident was a man whose Daughter was involved in the Zen movement and her and her Husband wrote books on the subject. I will see if I can find that thread.

EDIT: Here it is, they lived actually on MAPLE.

34 Maple, L. Arundel Hopkins/ William Sterba/Donald H. Campbell (Several diff names at one residence???) Lambert Arundel Hopkins(His Daughter was Anne Hopkins Aitken, married to Robert Aitken, both were authors about the ZEN movement)

EDIT: By Trav. Interesting location cause it’s right on the possible route Z could have taken because it’s on the end of Maple.

Here’s some zynchronicity.

I thought i’d google earth Manalli’s 1971 return address. guernewood park ca 95446.

It’s located just past the intersection of Cherry St and Lovers Lane.

It’s Po Box and appears to set off the road in, you guessed it. A Pine copse . It isn’t a road So I can’t quite find the property or the box. It’s just ‘in there’ somewhere I assume, or was.

He was using this address when the pines card was sent/recieved. Not using this to further Manalli as a suspect. Just thought it was some worthy and entertaining zync.

Question for the handwriting folks here. Have Moriil’s notes on the zodiac hand writing analysis ever been made public? If so could you link them I would love to check them out.

Well now, Cherry Street and Lovers Lane is interesting!

Question for the handwriting folks here. Have Moriil’s notes on the zodiac hand writing analysis ever been made public? If so could you link them I would love to check them out.

His analysis has been, kinda, or at least I assume some of it is his. It’s analysis notations on some of the writing exemplars in the case and they are in the FBI files. Doesn’t really tell us anything that insightful unless you can understand the notations and are interested a certain POI and can work out who’s handriting has the notations on them.

There’s no notes as such that I am aware of. There’s some general comments that he made on video but nothing indepth or specific.

TF shared this interesting tidbit with me a while ago.

In Sherwood Morrill’s obituary in the Sacramento Bee (3-23-1988, p. C2),there were some interesting tidbits: he died at the age of 73 on 3-19-1988 It said:

"Among his most famous cases was the Zodiac killer, in which Mr. Morrill cleared nearly 9,000 suspects. Although he said he was able to narrow the number of suspects down to one, he never publicly or privately named the person, family members said. "

________________________________________________________________________________

Well now, Cherry Street and Lovers Lane is interesting!

It’s is and it isn’t Pat. Doesn’t really mean anything because those are pretty common St names throughout California and can often appear quite close to each other. I just thought it was a nice but, still quite common, coincidence.

Still though. I find it mildly interesting that Fred lived on Frederick St in SF and I had to wonder how he thought coincidence and if he noticed it. He had to have noticed but it was probably just coincidence? wasn’t it? or did he deliberately choose that address because of it? If just for his own amusement. Maybe he had a few choices of where to reside and they were all as good as each but that coincidence may have swung it? Who knows?

Nothing’s impossible, it’s deciding if it was likely that’s the tricky bit.

I should mention that the above post wasn’t strictly blind zync. I was reading through Manalli’s stuff and he mentions that the "Russian River was rising like mad". I had to google that because I thought it was another of his obscure literary references. I now know it’s just a river lol but that’s what led me google earth the location. Zodiac did afterall mentioning flooding and rising rivers made me think of that.

Thanks, Trav. The rising river plus Zodiac stating he once was flooded-out is interesting too. "Interesting" is the only adjective I know.

One thing that bothers me about Manalli is his height. It fits Bryan Hartnell’s description but others describe Zodiac as 5’8" to 5’11" — that’s about average and we know Manalli was 6’3" (iirc). I know that witness identification is iffy but that’s a lot of variance. As a tall person myself, it seldom seems that others guess tall people shorter than they actually are. Usually they guess taller (in my anecdotally gathered opinion).

Thanks, Trav. The rising river plus Zodiac stating he once was flooded-out is interesting too. "Interesting" is the only adjective I know.

One thing that bothers me about Manalli is his height. It fits Bryan Hartnell’s description but others describe Zodiac as 5’8" to 5’11" — that’s about average and we know Manalli was 6’3" (iirc). I know that witness identification is iffy but that’s a lot of variance. As a tall person myself, it seldom seems that others guess tall people shorter than they actually are. Usually they guess taller (in my anecdotally gathered opinion).

Yes it bothers me too. Still. I don’t need to think that Manalli was Zodiac to benefit from investigating him. Look at the avenues this has opened up for to explore. Hopefully this experience and others like it will pay dividends some day if we approach a POI that turns out to be ‘the one’.

Fouke once estimated Zodiac’s height as six foot two. Don’t rule out Manalli because of how tall he was.

Since this thread has poetry and zen in it, I thought I would post this here. Recently, I was reading up on San Francisco poets from the 50’s and 60’s. There was a poet who ran in the Ginsberg (sp?) circle by the name of Bruce Boyd (James Bruce Boyd). He was given the moniker of the zen poet by his friends. He dropped off the map completely (according to his friends) in 1969.

There’s my totally irrelevant post for the month. You’re all welcome.

Hi, Not sure where to put this besides this thread. Anyway, thinking about the ad placed in the Chronicle two days after Manalli died – "ZODIAC, your partner is in DEEP REAL ESTATE. You’re next. The Imperial Wizard can save you. Surrender to him or I’ll terminate your case. R.A.". Does anyone know the guidelines/deadlines to placing an ad at that time? I remember back as soon at the late 90’s/early 2000’s (before massive internet use) you had to call or write or visit the newspaper to place an ad. Also, i remember there was a deadline for submitting the ad. Example is ad has to be submitted at 5pm monday and new ads start on wednesday or something like that. Just wondering if its even possible for someone to get that ad into the paper so soon after Manalli’s death. If the ad had anything to do with him (chances are slim). Maybe someone with access to the SF chronicle from that time period could see if there is any info in the paper about submitting personals. Just a thought.

I think that Zodiphile raised a good point about the lead time of placing a want ad before it was actually published in the paper. We really do not have a definitive answer on that yet. But I did want to point out one thing I noticed when Tahoe and I were putting the SF Chronicle articles in chronological order and that is the Chronicle ran a Zodiac story the day before this want ad was in the paper.

The Aug. 26, 1976 article is posted way down towards the bottom, here-

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtop … 150#p12150

The previous article on Zodiac in that paper was more than a year prior, April 1975, and was about Sonoma County SO linking the SRHM and other unsolved murders to Zodiac leaving a trail of murders that when tracked on a map of the US formed a "Z". AKA The Giant Z Theory