The actual, say, linguistic connections are pretty tenuous if you ask me. It’s largely a question of "could be" this or that. It’s the old story: We have to divine his actual intention (is it a badly drawn rune, a poor attempt at Cyrillic, a brand mark – or none of the above?) as part of the premise, and that won’t stand up in…court, or anywhere else.

The SLA letter undeniably contains references to Old Norse. But I for one am not convinced he wrote it. And if he did, he certainly wasn’t very knowledgeable. What he claims isn’t the case, it’s imprecise at best, as none other than Penn pointed out back in the day.

^^Yep.

There has been discussion in the past that "Deep Heat" and "salt beef" from the Little List letter are possible UK references…
viewtopic.php?f=62&t=1327

"UK’s No.1 selling pain relief heat brand"
http://deep-heat.co.uk/

"Salt beef in the UK and Commonwealth as a cured and boiled foodstuff is sometimes known as corned beef elsewhere, though traditional salt beef is different in taste and preparation. The use of the term corned comes from the fact that the Middle English word corn could refer to grains of salt as well as cereal grains"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt-cured_meat

I know I’m on here too much when I’m the only one who remembers this stuff.

The actual, say, linguistic connections are pretty tenuous if you ask me. It’s largely a question of "could be" this or that. It’s the old story: We have to divine his actual intention (is it a badly drawn rune, a poor attempt at Cyrillic, a brand mark – or none of the above?) as part of the premise, and that won’t stand up in…court, or anywhere else.

The SLA letter undeniably contains references to Old Norse. But I for one am not convinced he wrote it. And if he did, he certainly wasn’t very knowledgeable. What he claims isn’t the case, it’s imprecise at best, as none other than Penn pointed out back in the day.

What’re you saying, Norse? That the Zodiac wasn’t a highly skilled linguist in addition to his talents as astronomer, bomb maker, master cryptographer, surveyor, marksman, cosmonaut, international chef, and certified armpit sniffer?

…Edited…

The SLA letter undeniably contains references to Old Norse. But I for one am not convinced he wrote it. And if he did, he certainly wasn’t very knowledgeable. What he claims isn’t the case, it’s imprecise at best, as none other than Penn pointed out back in the day.

The unusual writing on the SLA letter was confirmed by Cal DOJ Morrill & the FBI as Zodiac. And as usual, Penn is not quite as smart as he thinks he is. The Old Norse word "sla" means "slay", which means to slaughter or to kill. So Zodiac was "right" in my opinion. Or at least close enough to indicate some knowledge of Norse. If we want to debate this much further I think we already have a topic going on it if not we can create one. We should probably wrap up this debate pretty soon and leave this thread to Mr. X.

I agree with doranchak’s point above.

The fact that KQ used monarch sized paper is interesting. Just like it’s interesting that, say, Sullivan worked at the library. Or that Ted K actually killed people. Plenty of proposed suspects have something in that vein which no other proposed suspect can match. But the argument, if we can call it that, is seriously flawed. It presupposes that Z had to have been one of the known and proposed “POIs” people have promoted over the years.

If we’re looking in a limited – but perfectly artificial – pool of proposed suspects for the one guy who fits the bill the most, well, I’m sure we can narrow it down to one “winner” based on whatever criteria we decide on. But – I’m tempted to say – so what? Who’s to say Z is in that pool to begin with?

No disrespect to Mike – his case obviously doesn’t rest on that argument alone, and it’s more of a general point anyway, not specific to KQ.

Agree with you, as per usual, Norse.

And also kudos to Doranchak, with the point about the red shoes and the blue hat. This is the kind of stuff I love.

Conclusive proof can’t come from items that more than a select pool of people ever used. Period. That goes for things like the Wingwalker prints as well.

There is a well-known correlation between the military, security work, etc. and those who commit homicide. A HUGE proportion of serial killers either were in the military, or tried to get in the military, were security guards or tried to be, and so on. Any job where you can, under certain circumstances, shoot someone legally, those are hotbeds for serial-killer types.

Ergo, Wing Walker prints doesn’t prove he was in the Air Force any more than the possession of Monarch paper proves he is Z. And didn’t someone come upon a set of Zodiac stationary, and noticed that if one cut the margins of the paper and eliminated the symbols from the page (each bore an astrological symbol) it would be the same size as what Z used. Not saying he used this set, but – MANY people could be in possession of Monarch paper.

As far as writing on cars, stock car racers might sign a piece of the body, and certainly car salesmen write on cars. The DOT writes on cars. Junkyards write on cars. Not conclusive. I wouldn’t even call that circumstantial.

And there is another point about suspects. I have always noticed in long criminal investigations, where one is confronted with a large pool of suspects, that there are a lot of freaky people in the world who might have a handful of tantalizing matches with the killer. Say, a girl is found in a field of wheat stabbed with an antique knife. You got a guy who is a wheat farmer, he sells antique knives, and he hated blondes, and the girl was a blonde. And he winds up NOT being the killer. That happens A LOT. Its rather depressing, really, to cast your eye round a public place and KNOW there are people who could probably fit some profile of some serial killer right in your environs, under your very nose, and they might not have done a damn thing.

Point being, if anyone was going to be prosecuted on circumstance, ALA is the prime freaking suspect by a light-years-wife margin. Guy wore 10 1/2 boots, father an Air Force hero, ALA has degrees in chemistry and biology, hung up about kids, he matches a lot of the descriptions, Z watch AND ring, probably knew Dee Ferrin, lived in Vallejo, and told a friend he was gonna commit the murders in precisely the way Z did, and had a bloody knife in his CAR on the day of the LB murders-verified by the POLICE, and a location he had told a bunch of people he was headed to but then "changed his mind"……and so on. Yet he doesn’t match the DNA or the fingerprints, and people in the Z community will laugh in your face if you still think ALA did it.

I personally believe, if you are weighing a preponderance of the evidence, that the physical evidence in this case may be fatally flawed and it is certainly incomplete. No matching DNA found on ANY of the letters. NONE. And a partial isn’t good enough in either case to enter into any database. What does that tell you? That there is a good chance that that DNA isn’t gonna match ANYONE conclusively, and maybe it doesn’t even belong to Z. So, you are right, Mike, that sometimes circumstantial evidence is all you have, and you can win a case with that. So, again, if that is true, in a double-blind-I-am-a-space-alien-with-no prejudice kind of way, that a mere weighing of the circumstantial evidence, NOBODY is gonna win that but one big fat dead child molester and certified creepy bastard Arthur Leigh Allen. No way does the handful of facts you have presented as circumstantial evidence win against the pile against ALA. Does that mean that I think that you are full of it? No. I do not. Do I believe 100 percent that ALA did it? Nope. No way. There are some irreconcilables there that I can’t jump over, and I am not finished looking. And you shouldn’t be either.

AND THAT IS THE POINT. Everyone lambasts, and rightly so, Robert Graysmith’s tunnel vision. The guy was a cartoonist, not a detective, and he didn’t follow protocol, he didn’t have all the case files, he didn’t even really know procedure. He got tunnel vision early on and it damaged his argument. You can’t make up your mind that someone is the Guy and not be a continuous skeptic. Skepticism if healthy. It keeps your mind open and if a suspect if worth it, if he is REALLY the guy, he will survive all scrutiny and argument. I will always remain incredulous until this is conclusively solved. I would be a fool if I did not.
There are a pile of Zchronicities that can sidetrack anyone.

Its like the water theory. Blue Rock Springs, Lake Herman Road, etc. THIS IS THE BAY AREA. There is always gonna be water around. Isn’t Vallejo’s nickname Water Town? It isn’t the sort of thing that is gonna solve this case.

The Old Norse word "sla" means "slay", which means to slaughter or to kill.

No, it does not. It means to strike, not to slay.

But you’re right, this isn’t the place for that debate.

good post MM..i am in agreement with ALA..after all these years and even with the DNA not matching (or so they say) he is still a prime suspect..you can read ALA and come to the conclusion yea thats the guy..X defiently signed cars..but so did shelby (as do many others)..i still think though the Z perp is somehow connected to riverside and moved north, went to berkley and was an artsy kinda freak who got off killing (how can I forget a disgruntled KC A’s fan)…then worked for the post office but never went postal…but I am not ruling out the X..he definetly was in the area of all the crime scenes including CJB..

The Old Norse word "sla" means "slay", which means to slaughter or to kill.

No, it does not. It means to strike, not to slay.

But you’re right, this isn’t the place for that debate.

I will mostly concede your point that Zodiac was somewhat imprecise, though I think he had the right general idea. As you say, the Old Norse word "sla" is defined as "strike", which means to hit, but "sla" is also defined as "smite", which means to severely wound or kill. See http://www.vikingsofbjornstad.com/Old_N … y_E2N.shtm . Also our word "slaughter" gets its root from the Old Norse word "slahtr", which means a mass killing of animals or men, a slaughter. Perhaps Zodiac equated the "sla" meaning of "smite", "to severely wound or kill", with roughly meaning "kill".

The larger point is, even if imprecise, most people don’t know the meaning or near meaning of any Norse words! I think it shows some interest in and knowledge of Norse By Z, perhaps along with the (debatable) use of Norse and/or Germanic runes, and saying he used the German officers gun the Luger, and some other things. Certainly one small to medium sized point to mention in regards to a suspect who came from a Scandinavian country (like Mr. X), or someone who had the Norse Prose Edda book and other German books in his cabin (like Ted K), and I think Manson associate Bruce Davis also briefly used some Norse imagery, and other suspects may have points of reference to Norse, Scandinavia and/or Germany.

Anyway I think that covers it but if Norse or anyone else want to explore if Zodiac really made Norse references we can do so here viewtopic.php?f=96&t=2202

That is a thread started by Darla Jones. At the beginning of that thread we talked about Norse influences on Z and rune stones he might have used on the Halloween Card. Then the thread got more into a debate about any influences from the Process Church or the occult, but that seems to have mostly run its course, at least for now. So we can certainly pick up any further discussion on Norse there, if anything further is warranted.

And return this thread to more direct discussion of Mr. X.

He is the one who wrote the letter to the Chron.
He is the one who lived near the PH crime scene and was spoken to by AP after the Stine murder. He is the one who lied to me about his whereabouts that night at our 2006 tete-a-tete.
He is the one who wrote to me TWICE on Monarch sized paper. (Again, I am begging someone to tell me which other suspect ever wrote
even one letter in their lives on Monarch sized paper, so I can end my delusion of thinking that NO OTHER suspect can be proven to have even known what Monarch sized paper was.)
KQ had the car entered in Riverside on October 30, 1966. KQ is the one who used to autograph cars in felt tip pen. KQ fits the power-assertive profile of Zodiac.

And as for KQ being an "Imperial Wizard" or some such thing, prove it! Saying someone *could* have been something is useless. Lots of people could be or could have been lots of things…

Mike

Can I ask a couple questions? Q wrote a letter to the paper, one in particular that you personally thought, read like Z,is that the basic premise? If so,lots of People wrote letters to the Editor, we have a whole thread here of letters to the Editor, many of them read like Z.

He lived near the PH crime scene. So what, there may be multiple suspects that did that we just are not aware of.

He wrote on monarch paper,so what? Lots of people did,that’s why they made it and sold it.

He had a car entered in Riverside on the day of Cheri’s murder. Trying to connect your Suspect to Riverside…I totally understand it because I believe that Z lived in Riverside. But how does that get his writing on a desk in the RCC Library? Did he have cars entered in Riverside when the confession letter was mailed, or the Bates had to die letters?

Lastly, why have we not seen handwriting samples of your Suspect? Unless I am missing something, besides an autograph or two,I am the only person that has posted handwriting of MrX,and it didn’t lool much like Z’s writing. So,again, do you mean to tell me you don’t have writing for Mr X with all of your years of research? I’d like to see it.

Sorry for the Norse diversion! To try to get back on topic, before we got off on that tangent, Morf was asking asking some questions about Mr. X, and also about seeing more handwriting, as he does at the bottom of the quote.

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=2507

More on old Norse.

Now, back to real estate.

So, again, if that is true, in a double-blind-I-am-a-space-alien-with-no prejudice kind of way, that a mere weighing of the circumstantial evidence, NOBODY is gonna win that but one big fat dead child molester and certified creepy bastard Arthur Leigh Allen. No way does the handful of facts you have presented as circumstantial evidence win against the pile against ALA. Does that mean that I think that you are full of it? No. I do not. Do I believe 100 percent that ALA did it? Nope. No way. There are some irreconcilables there that I can’t jump over, and I am not finished looking. And you shouldn’t be either.

It’s true that ALA is the king of the circumstantial connections to the case but he’s also completely ruled out by the Big Four: physical description, DNA, handwriting and fingerprints. The lack of any resemblance to the PH sketch is pretty much fatal to ALA being Z and Graysmith’s equivocations on that were shameful imo.

But a lot of circumstantial evidence is still a great reason to investigate someone! There was definitely enough there to take a look at KQ, but the DNA doesn’t match, the handwriting doesn’t match, he’s too thin. I just don’t see a reason to keep looking at him.

So, again, if that is true, in a double-blind-I-am-a-space-alien-with-no prejudice kind of way, that a mere weighing of the circumstantial evidence, NOBODY is gonna win that but one big fat dead child molester and certified creepy bastard Arthur Leigh Allen. No way does the handful of facts you have presented as circumstantial evidence win against the pile against ALA. Does that mean that I think that you are full of it? No. I do not. Do I believe 100 percent that ALA did it? Nope. No way. There are some irreconcilables there that I can’t jump over, and I am not finished looking. And you shouldn’t be either.

It’s true that ALA is the king of the circumstantial connections to the case but he’s also completely ruled out by the Big Four: physical description, DNA, handwriting and fingerprints. The lack of any resemblance to the PH sketch is pretty much fatal to ALA being Z and Graysmith’s equivocations on that were shameful imo.

But a lot of circumstantial evidence is still a great reason to investigate someone! There was definitely enough there to take a look at KQ, but the DNA doesn’t match, the handwriting doesn’t match, he’s too thin. I just don’t see a reason to keep looking at him.

Some People will never give up on a Suspect

He is the one who wrote the letter to the Chron.
He is the one who lived near the PH crime scene and was spoken to by AP after the Stine murder. He is the one who lied to me about his whereabouts that night at our 2006 tete-a-tete.
He is the one who wrote to me TWICE on Monarch sized paper. (Again, I am begging someone to tell me which other suspect ever wrote
even one letter in their lives on Monarch sized paper, so I can end my delusion of thinking that NO OTHER suspect can be proven to have even known what Monarch sized paper was.)
KQ had the car entered in Riverside on October 30, 1966. KQ is the one who used to autograph cars in felt tip pen. KQ fits the power-assertive profile of Zodiac.

And as for KQ being an "Imperial Wizard" or some such thing, prove it! Saying someone *could* have been something is useless. Lots of people could be or could have been lots of things…

Mike

Can I ask a couple questions? Q wrote a letter to the paper, one in particular that you personally thought, read like Z,is that the basic premise? If so,lots of People wrote letters to the Editor, we have a whole thread here of letters to the Editor, many of them read like Z.

He lived near the PH crime scene. So what, there may be multiple suspects that did that we just are not aware of.

He wrote on monarch paper,so what? Lots of people did,that’s why they made it and sold it.

He had a car entered in Riverside on the day of Cheri’s murder. Trying to connect your Suspect to Riverside…I totally understand it because I believe that Z lived in Riverside. But how does that get his writing on a desk in the RCC Library? Did he have cars entered in Riverside when the confession letter was mailed, or the Bates had to die letters?

Lastly, why have we not seen handwriting samples of your Suspect? Unless I am missing something, besides an autograph or two,I am the only person that has posted handwriting of MrX,and it didn’t lool much like Z’s writing. So,again, do you mean to tell me you don’t have writing for Mr X with all of your years of research? I’d like to see it.

I helped get us off track by diverting into the Norse topic, though the topic is clearly relevant to Mr. X considering his country of origin. Then we got off into ALA and other matters. Before all these (interesting) diversions, this is where the thread was, Morf was asking some questions about Mr. X and asking if there is more handwriting to see. These are good questions so I will post this quote to see if people want to finish that conversation.

Question: Would a person who autographs cars in a professional capacity be (significantly) more likely to do this in the capacity of a…serial killer?

It’s obviously interesting – given the context – that Mr X was in the habit of writing on cars, but he didn’t do this frivolously: He did it for a specific reason. Now, if it required some kind of special skill to write on cars – and Mr X had been proven to possess this skill – that would be very different. But that’s not the case here.

What I’m saying is basically that the car writing thing is too tenuous – in itself. It’s noteworthy, clearly, but not compelling, IMO.