Holy Cow! Took me all afternoon but I think I found the parents of Edward Charles Adams: Manson Reid Adams and Mabel Frisbie. Time is right. Location is right. Looks pretty promising.

The only thing I found even remotely close to being Z like is, as I said, John B Frisbie being the technical founder of Vallejo and his connection to General Vallejo via marriage. I did see mention of a merchant/ naval ship named general Frisbie sailing the San Fran bay. Also a mention of a Polynesian princess mentioned on an old zk board concerning batman.

Soze

The name FRISBIE, is sticking out to me for some reason. Hmm

I don’t suppose it has anything to do with Oneida New York? How about Albany?

Soze

The name FRISBIE, is sticking out to me for some reason. Hmm

I don’t suppose it has anything to do with Oneida New York? How about Albany?

Soze

I just can’t remember. Maybe I had read he founded Vallejo. The name just rang a bell.

Holy Cow! Took me all afternoon but I think I found the parents of Edward Charles Adams: Manson Reid Adams and Mabel Frisbie. Time is right. Location is right. Looks pretty promising.

The only thing I found even remotely close to being Z like is, as I said, John B Frisbie being the technical founder of Vallejo and his connection to General Vallejo via marriage. I did see mention of a merchant/ naval ship named general Frisbie sailing the San Fran bay. Also a mention of a Polynesian princess mentioned on an old zk board concerning batman.

Soze

Soze, I am just curious, it seems as if Adams suspected a Patient of his as being the person that sent the letter. Do you think it was actually a non-patient or Family Member?

Edward and Marion had a sister, Ellen Adams DOB July 13, 1917. She married Wallace Lechter Kaapcke April 4, 1942. The husband died in Berkeley in 1994 and she died in Contra Costa County in 1995. They were married for 52 years. Kaapcke was an attorney with the firm Pillsbury, Madison and Sutro. An oral history interview was conducted with him in 1986/87. The transcript of the interview is available online. A couple of the topics in the interview sound intriguing from a Zodiac perspective.

"General civil practice" : a varied and exciting life at Pillsbury, Madison & Sutro : oral history transcript / 1986-1987

by Kaapcke, Wallace Letcher, 1916-; Bancroft Library. Regional Oral History Office; Hicke, Carole; Tingle, James O’M

Published c1990

Topics Kirkham, Francis, Madison, Marshall P, Matson Navigation Company, San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit District (Calif.), Utah Construction & Mining Co, General Electric Company, San Francisco Opera, University of Oregon School of Law, Pillsbury, Madison & Sutro, Admiralty — United States, Antitrust law — United States History, Grand jury — California, Law firms — California San Francisco

http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/ROHO/colle … firms.html at this link click on Kaapcke’s name, a new window will open and you have to agree to something, then the transcript will appear.

Soze, I recalled that you were looking for a building near 555 California SF in this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=98&t=2291

The law firm that Adams brother-in-law worked for was just a block over from this location.

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company- … p-history/

One of the two known locations of where Zodiac dropped his letters in a corner mailbox was on Van Ness in SF, but this mailbox was at the corner of Union so would be the 2300/2400 block of Van Ness.

http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/reply/1 … ply-145486

The 1600 block of Van Ness is between Sacramento and California streets.

Somehow I have a church coming to mind for van ness. What ever I’m thinking of goes back 5 years. I remember it being something I read when I first started.

That address I was thinking of above was 240 Montgomery and it was for Lewis b Reynolds.

Soze

Seagull, I wasn’t aware that not only one but apparently two Zodiac letters were retrieved prior to their actual mailing. Do you, or does anyone else, know what letters these were? I always wondered how someone at a PO never recognized Z from the composite/handwriting…If I was a postal worker, I’d grow hawk eyes and be on the lookout for those letters. A drop-box makes sense if one wants to preserve both ID and actual residence. Interesting that the Van Ness box was relatively close to Adams’s office. More zynchro madness….

Though It’ll likely end up as dead an end as anything else, I’d like for this to lead somewhere. Some yet-unknown clue about Z’s mailing habits or something.

Somehow I have a church coming to mind for van ness. What ever I’m thinking of goes back 5 years. I remember it being something I read when I first started.

That address I was thinking of above was 240 Montgomery and it was for Lewis b Reynolds.

Soze

Could you be remembering this old post from Zodiackiller.com mentioning Van Ness??
http://www.zodiackiller.com/mba/opzv/801.html

There is a Herbst Theater mentioned here on Van Ness-
https://books.google.com/books?id=3fd1b … er&f=false

I believe this to be something but it still requires more research:

Edward C Adams was born October 3, 1919 in Berkeley, Alameda, California to unknown Adams and unknown Frisbie. He married Aurelie unknown and they moved for a time to Walnut Creek, California. Edward had a sister named Marian. Marian was born July 27, 1914. She married an unknown Reynolds and also moved to Walnut Creek, California. I found a mention for a Lewis B and Marian A Reynolds in the Save Mount Diablo publication of 2015. This publication is after their passing so I am curious as to why they are mentioned. Unfortunately, for some reason, I am unable to download the file to see. I did find other publications for Marian that date, so far, back to 2005. Anyway, I am thinking here about the Benning compass on Mt. Diablo and the Save Mt. Diablo campaign that began in 1971 (perhaps earlier since this was the founding date for the organization). Maybe both Edward and his sister Marian had ties that also brought about the Phillips 66 map and cipher.

Lewis B Reynolds tied to Daily Californian (peoples park) and the Oakland Post Enquirer (Hearst)

Also, I think it important to find out who Edwards mother is. I found John B Frisbie of Vallejo to be quite interesting for the case.

Soze

The name FRISBIE, is sticking out to me for some reason. Hmm I will see if I can figure out where I know that name from. Also, regarding Save MtDiablo project, you may want to check with THEDUDE, since his suspect was involved with the same group. He may be able to tell you more about it.

Her name was Aurelia Walcott Adams.

Originally posted in another thread:

Why does a writer who is so distinct as Z (and who clearly enjoys writing, one could also add) choose to express himself in this manner? The obvious reason (the only really good reason I can think of, for that matter) why someone would opt for a cut n’ paste job is that he is afraid that his handwriting might give him away. But Z wasn’t afraid of this, as he demonstrated on numerous occasions.

The handwriting Z is never personal. The only individual he addresses is the very public figure of Melvin Belli – and his motives for doing so remain unclear. Whatever they are, he certainly shows no malice towards the recipient. The handwriting Z has little interest in individuals – other than himself, that is.

The cut n’ paste Z, on the other hand, displays – almost – the diametrically opposite tendency. He sends missives privately to specific individuals – and displays plenty of malice towards them.

It is obviously not inconceivable that Z could have had private scores to settle, and that he used his Z persona to frighten people he had a beef with for some reason or other – but that still doesn’t explain why he didn’t write to them in his recognizable (and frightening) style, the one he was most widely known for.

Similarly, if we bring Lass into it: If Z killed Donna Lass, why didn’t he – simply – claim her as a victim in his regular fashion? What good would it do him to take credit for the crime obliquely and ambiguously – hiding her body, at that, so well that nobody’s found it to date. This is radically different from any of his known victims (including Bates, if we care to include her). How do we explain this difference?

To me this is a rather basic problem: Either we presuppose (for each of the individual crimes) a need for publicity/notoriety – or we don’t. We can’t presuppose some kind of half-need. If he killed Lass it makes no sense to me that he wouldn’t simply use the formula which worked so well for him elsewhere. Unless he didn’t want the attention, didn’t want to be associated with it (because it was personal to a significantly different degree). But that is the very opposite of what he does elsewhere – it can’t be ignored. And if it were the case, he would have kept quiet about it. It makes no sense that a fundamentally attention seeking killer sort of craves attention all of a sudden, but not really, not fully.

Seagull posted in reply:

Seagull wrote:

The simplest answer is we believe that some of the cut and paste cards were genuine Zodiac communications because the experts told us they were. There were cards where the experts waffled as to their opinion, such as the Leo and Cancer missives and the Peek Through the Pines card. It is hard for us mere mortals to know for sure because we are not privy to how exactly the experts arrived at their conclusions. There could be perfectly rational reasons why, for instance the Halloween Card to Paul Avery was considered genuine but we are not told the complete procedure that Morrill used to verify the card. We can only guess and as time goes on our guesses become more educated and that makes us doubt the original opinion.

I do understand your consternation, the two different types of communication seem at odds with each other. It is hard to reconcile how the experts came to their conclusions.

Exactly. And that is quite problematic, IMO.

Part of such a determination is bound to be (too) subjective, that goes for both experts and amateurs. It’s also vulnerable to being biased, agenda driven, unduly influenced by a particular angle (e.g. we’re looking for a sailor, or a house painter, or a transvestite with a wooden leg) – and so forth.

If we knew precisely what the rationale was, it would help immensely. But we don’t. With most of Z’s "confirmed" communications, however, the rationale is obvious – there isn’t any doubt whatsoever why they considered the letters genuine. To me, it’s like this: You have, on the one hand, the latter category (obviously Z’s work) – and on the other a bunch of "possibles" which are both at odds with Regular Z’s MO and internally inconsistent (some are sent privately, others not – some are pure cut n’ paste, some are mixed, some are just writing, etc.); and almost ALL of which appear among literally HUNDREDS of fakes, pranks and whatnot which the various jurisdictions and newspapers were flooded with after the Zodiac case became big news, post Stine.

ETA:

If you read the FBI files, you may come across several statements from the SFPD indicating that Z was definitely responsible for seven murders. Not five (canonical), not six (Bates), but seven. Example:

Zodiac (…) claims to have killed 13 people and (…) is believed by police authorities definitely responsible for seven murders.

Memo headlined "General Investigative Division", dated Oct 22 1970.

What are we supposed to make of this? I can think of several possible explanations, including a very basic one: Seven definite victims turn into seven murdered victims – and this error is repeated throughout X number of subsequent memos.

It could, however, also mean that the SFPD not only considered Bates a definite Z victim (we know they did) but also another, unnamed person.

It could furthermore mean that the SFPD considered Zodiac truthful at the point where he claimed seven kills (but probably not truthful beyond that point).

It could mean a whole lot of things. But does it mean that we – in 2015 – should take this statement (which is contradicted by multiple other statements, found elsewhere, made by other jurisdictions, or the FBI, or even the SFPD themselves) at face value and go with the idea that Z definitely killed seven people? I’d say obviously not. There is no reason why we should do that.

ETA:

If you read the FBI files, you may come across several statements from the SFPD indicating that Z was definitely responsible for seven murders. Not five (canonical), not six (Bates), but seven. Example:

Zodiac (…) claims to have killed 13 people and (…) is believed by police authorities definitely responsible for seven murders.

Memo headlined "General Investigative Division", dated Oct 22 1970.

What are we supposed to make of this? I can think of several possible explanations, including a very basic one: Seven definite victims turn into seven murdered victims – and this error is repeated throughout X number of subsequent memos.

It could, however, also mean that the SFPD not only considered Bates a definite Z victim (we know they did) but also another, unnamed person.

It could furthermore mean that the SFPD considered Zodiac truthful at the point where he claimed seven kills (but probably not truthful beyond that point).

It could mean a whole lot of things. But does it mean that we – in 2015 – should take this statement (which is contradicted by multiple other statements, found elsewhere, made by other jurisdictions, or the FBI, or even the SFPD themselves) at face value and go with the idea that Z definitely killed seven people? I’d say obviously not. There is no reason why we should do that.

I believe that the reason LE thought Zodiac had killed seven at that point is because they felt he was responsible for the Snoozy /Ferlong murders. The next known communication from Zodiac claimed seven victims and included Des July Aug Sept Oct = 7 in the card. Snoozy and Ferlong were killed in Aug. Of course, it was later learned that Karl Werner stabbed them to death.

I don’t think we can take everything that LE says as gospel because they make honest mistakes, just like the rest of us. It’s perfectly reasonable to revisit the letters and re-evaluate whether or not we now believe they all are genuine. Also, we have the luxury of hindsight where we can say with a reasonable amount of certainty that Zodiac was BSing us in some letters. There will always be those that have prejudices regarding the veracity of the letters because without those prejudices their respective suspects might not measure up to being Zodiac.

I believe that the reason LE thought Zodiac had killed seven at that point is because they felt he was responsible for the Snoozy /Ferlong murders. The next known communication from Zodiac claimed seven victims and included Des July Aug Sept Oct = 7 in the card. Snoozy and Ferlong were killed in Aug. Of course, it was later learned that Karl Werner stabbed them to death.

Yep, that’s yet another possibility.

I find it very interesting that they may have considered this, BTW.

What we have there is something which is superficially similar to LB – and that’s it. In reality the differences outweigh the similarities by far (in my opinion, at least):

* No credit taken whatsoever beyond a reference which could mean anything (there is nothing ambiguous about the credit taken for the known Z crimes).
* Two female victims.
* Victims younger than any known Z victim.
* The nature of the attack (which is horrible, gruesome – the poor kids were stabbed, literally, hundreds of times in what was truly a frenzied assault, unlike Z’s at LB which is only wild and frenzied compared to his other attacks).

And yet they may have considered this a Z attack. * That says a great deal about their (in)fallibility (which you also mention above).

* And more than that: Taken at face value the memo (and similar statements) above means that they were definitely of the opinion that Z had killed seven people. Not possibly, but definitely. And if the Snoozy/Furlong theory is the right one (which is certainly possible – it fits the "August" detail), that would mean they were certain the girls were Z victims.

And they weren’t.

Well, Z did cut & paste on the Avery Halloweeen card too, but the written portion of it was matched to Z, so he wasn’t a stranger to cut & paste style.

There was a written portion of the Lass postcard, that was supposedly linked to Z,Which part??? Anybody know?