WOW Trav,very sharp looking!

Very nice work, Trav. I think there’s a good chance that the Lake B. weapon was also a Browning Hi-Power since it resembles a .45.

Nice chart, trav.

I think the Berryessa gun and the Presidio Heights one may very well have been the same weapon.

Nice work Trav!

It would be interesting to know ( any gun enthuasists around) what handguns work best for what. Would it just be the feel of a particular model/ depends what your shooting/ target pistol /profession etc. Also if we were to look at it after LHR, could we say he "powered up" and then perhaps by definition we could say that the first gun he used was the one he used most. A stretch I know but perhaps he had a JC higgins for some particular purpose…..(obviously I know nothing about handguns) maybe target shooting. He uses it for LHR and decides there’s not enough power so gets a more suitable weapon. What I’m asking is,can the guns/particular models, tell us anything about the owner.

Nice, Trav.

Now I might be really really wrong, here, but please bear with me and boot me up in the air if you like, since obviously you’ve recently researched this, again.

On the "old" board we went through the MO’s (well, I tried to), and the weapons references.
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … s-operandi

Over there, I took a punt at the weapon type at BRS, based on an edoooocated guess, and some inferences from the reports, and from GS and the guy who wrote "Hunter Among the Stars", John R. jordan, who I infer have read the ballistics report that we haven’t. Perhaps. The appropriate bit is:

————————————-

"….a list of possible weapons from Paul Avery. They were: "Astra 600, P38 and Mauser", which made no sense until I realised that the first is Spanish made, but for export to Germany, and the others German. "Lugers" in other words! Doesn’t that sound like he was listing stuff in response to the first telephone call? It does to me.

In REAL LIFE in respect to the various pistols at the sites:

– JC Higgins Model 80 .22 (or a "High Standard" – essentially the same thing.) – LHR.
– P35 Browning Hi-Power 9mm IMG – and this is the assertion from those who’ve read the ballistics report (it ain’t a "Luger"!) – BRS.
– "Possibly new model Browning" 9mm semi-automatic ("not same 9mm as used in VPD case.") – PRESIDIO.
No point in mentioning Berryessa really. Poor old Bryan might have seen anything from a CZ to a kitchen sink, I fear.

Now, the .22 at LHR is a given. LR shells everywhere, very easy pistol to type (even though it was really worn) – a done deal.
Then, here’s where it goes hokey.

I’d always thought that the "Browning" was a real identification at the Stine scene, even though there was only one shell casing, and that the bullet itself must have been deformed. When Tahoe mentioned there wasn’t an exit head wound, I thought "Ah! That might make it easier to type!" But it seems it didn’t.
The Stine scene bullet seems to have been decided upon as likely to be from a Browning (and not a "New Model" either, the dummies, since thats a 7.65 or .38 FN) because of the relationship to the known ballistics at BRS, which I don’t think we’ve seen.

And it makes sense that the unseen ballistics report typed from BRS (which should have been easy, all those casings, shells etc.) names the common-use Browning P35 Hi-Power – and so the Stine scene does too, as a default. It ALSO makes sense of the CA Department of Justice report talking about a list of weapons which is basically an around-the-world tour of 9mm automatics too, taking in all our favourite countries, (I mean the list "Browning, Smith & Wesson [Model 39 maybe], Star, Astra, Llama, Neuhausen, Zebrojoka, Husqvarna and Esperanza).
It’s a list because they’re talking about the possibles for the Presidio weapon, not the BRS one. Of course.

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The BRS opinion would at least mean that the guy there could have shot Mike and Darlene, walked off, then turned around again, come back, and fired at them again without having to re-load, if he was carrying a P35 Browning Hi-Power 9mm IMG – supported by the number of shots fired and the autopsy report on Darlene, bless her.

Wier! Yes, opinions of these weapons would vary depending on use, but let’s talk about if you were going to shoot someone huh? As horrible as that is.
(I liked revolvers when I was shooting, personally, not automatics, and I liked "blued" weapons, not tarts guns with a shiny finish.)

The .22 at LHR, a handy thing for shooting at paper targets and rats and squirrels, and perhaps for intimidation, since it looks OK with its long barrel. It’s a very accurate target pistol, and used to win Olympic medals. (Go Google). It’s said that Mafia hit men use .22’s ‘cos they’re accurate and don’t make much noise, and they also don’t send shells straight through the intended target, hitting Granny at the next table. I think that’s hooey, since unfortunately they’re not very powerful, either. If you shot a 200lb man with one up close, you might find he became annoyed rather than dropping dead as required. They are light to carry, have a pleasant light action, (not too hard to pull), and are easy to strip and clean, so they are good fun to get started with. I’ve never shot one like the specified JCH, but I’ve shot an M&P and personally I found it accurate but a bit of a toy. (BTW some people say that the JC Higgins is liable to stoppage. That’s because they watch stupid Youtube videos of kids with second-hand or knock-off magazines. Any automatic is as good as your preparation and intelligence in being able to clean and load the thing, in my experience.)
Here’s a vid. Not much recoil, plinking away quite happily, and it doesn’t look deadly. (But of course, it is.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB006eyMTtE

The Browning is a nice solid 9mm with an excellent action, good stopping power, it’s well made and well finished. The design has been extensively ripped off down the years (because it’s good!) and if you believe in the crimes as a progression then yes, moving from a .22 to a 9mm makes sense. (I don’t, but there you are). If I was going out to shoot someone (which I wouldn’t) then I would want to carry something with a reasonable magazine which would be not too big and heavy to conceal, was well-finished and ultra-reliable, and so at the time this weapon would have done nicely, thanks. (The CZ I regularly shot was based closely upon it, and I’ve just noticed that this video here acknowledges that.)
Up-close, this would have been a savage thing to use on Mike and Darlene. Terrible.
And placing a weapon like it against Paul Stine’s head? Well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM1xBVgRxMA

A .45 (If Bryan was right) like the .45 he was threatened with would have been more like this. Too much for me. Might as well get a bazooka. At least it also would be useful turning it over and using it for hammering in tent pegs, in my opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs4BMfxlziI
I’ve shot a Gold Cup like this, and the sneaky beggars at the range slipped a magnum round into the magazine. A silly trick. It made me jump about a bit, as it turned my wrists around as the barrel flew up and tried to hit me in the ear. Nasty thing. If he’d used it at Berryessa he would have had some company quickly, since it ain’t quiet. They’d all have walked away again though, whistling, since it’s an intimidating piece of hardware.
There, FWIW.

Yeah, thanks Smithy…informative! It is interesting that you think the JC Higgins was more of a target pistol…I’ve often wondered about that ( especially as there was a shooting range inside the gates of the pump station apparently) and what it might say about Z….if he knew the difference (at the outset) between using this model or a more powerful handgun. Perhaps he just had the JC higgins for target shooting and relaized thereafter that something bigger would be more suited to his purposes. That’s not to say he didn’t have a couple of handguns to begin with, maybe he did. The flip side of the argument might suggest it was one of the reasons he had to get them out of the car….if he felt he didn’t have enough firepower..in the time allowed. Dunno just speculating.

I still don’t think there was a shooting range there back then. There is NOW, but when I asked Ed Rust (VPD) about a range there, he said he was not aware of one being there then.

I posted this elsewhere, but thought it good here too. A man was recently arrested here in So. Lake Tahoe and had this on him. I got a kick out of it when I saw the ammo.

I’m too lazy to read all of your post Smithy. The graphic was just created as a start point and a visual vehicle for the weapons as detailed in the police reports. Doesn’t mean they are right but I am in no position to interject my own thoughts as I know nothing about guns. I had a chance to hold a police revolver many years ago as a friend of mine had become a police officer here. He took the bullets out first and others at the time held it but for some reason I felt I shouldn’t. So never even held a real gun.

Trav – that happens a lot. People see my avatar and just move right along…..
Short version – your chart’s excellent although I believe there’s more information available than you reflect. Not that it matters.
One small correction maybe, at PH just "Browning" would do. That’s all!