By the way, there was previously a thread here about SOS- viewtopic.php?f=99&t=719

I think they are very similar, but I also believe that the Zodiac was a psychopath and was in more control of his own actions than Berkowitz who was schizo and taking orders from a black dog. Berkowitz seemed Act Focused where as Zodiac was more process focused. I’m not saying that I think Zodiac didn’t have some sort of schizotypal thing going on, but if he did it was nothing as severe as Berkowitz.

The Zodiac was organized, process focused, power driven and a hedonist.. I almost see him as bipolar with incidences of schizotypal thoughts/behavior not as severe as a full blown schizophrenic like Berkowitz.

Berkowitz? An Act Focused "visionary" And a "missionary" bc he was instructed by a hallucination to kill a specific group/type of people. Organized for someone with such severe mental illness which is why I think he creeped people out so much.

I agree with much of what you said Soze. Like you said in many extreme cases schizotypal disorders and mood disorders go hand in hand. Many with mood disorders experience schizotypal symptoms when, let’s say in bipolar case, the individual is at the height of mania or the lowest of their depressive cycle. In a sense they are only exhibiting the schizotypal symptoms when their mood disorder is causing extreme distress and disturbances in cognitive functioning.

Which makes me agree that yes Zodiac likely had a mood disorder… But I believe that at certain times was so severe it took on schizotypal symptoms. The "collecting slaves for the afterlife" and some other fantastical thinking examples make me lean toward him maybe being a bit schizo at times.

And yes many schizophrenics are very intelligent. It’s actually tragic just how many have much promise intellectually, but can’t be as productive as they wish bc of their mental illness.

I don’t know if SOS really believed a dog was talking to him, just like I don’t really believe Z thought he would have slaves in the afterlife

Sure that’s also possible. Can’t discount it. I suppose a visionary could also come across as a creative writer and visa versa. I think it’s up to speculation which he is according to opinion. I don’t know enough about SOS to be sure if his supposed schizophrenia was legitimate or not. I suppose he was deemed mentally competent now reading back so he must have been a psychopath with some intense mood disorder like Z or something. Or maybe they were just psychopaths period now that we are discussing and I’m thinking about it more.

Definitely interesting that SOS was involved in arson and Zodiac also mentioned by fire – yes indeedy.

I always found the MacDonald triad, even if it’s BS, interesting when looking into similar past behavior/symptoms of sociopathic serial offenders. Did Berkowitz wet his bed or torture/kill animals too?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macdonald_triad

SOS letters

Have any of you seen the prison interviews with Berkowitz They are bizarre to say the least,I personally think his Christian talk is just a elaborate act to gain attention. I don’t think he feels remorse for his victims at all. Much like the Zodiac I think he’s a remorseless psychotic.

I think the reason there are correlations to be drawn are because, well, they were both at the same thing but also because there’s a limited pool of actions to draw from when it comes to getting the attention. There are restraints because you want to ‘make contact’ so to speak but also remain unidentifiable. At any given time that is also limited by the communication methods available. Letter, phonecall etc.

I think the sub aim of any killer in that regard is to be unique and I think that’s why so many of them opt for branding. It’s an identifier and something that, they hope, will set them apart and garner the attention they seek. Consider bands and groups. You can’t be unique just because you play music. Not even a certain type of music. You have to take what’s already been done and make it yours in some way. In those terms though the serial killer is a very niche market. That means an rather concentrated pool of influence to draw from.

Without doing an extensive study on the subject I would suggest that Zodiac was quite a big influence in that area. His campaign was pretty extensive, diverse, elaborate. Quite the lexicon from which to draw inspiration. There are certainly aspects of the SOS letters that echo some of Zodiac’s stuff. The tone, the phrases. Even down to the misspelling of ‘Woman’.

I do have to wonder if SOS drew some direct inspiration from Zodiac’s campaign. There’s even his name. Son of ‘Sam’.

"…Is there something less ominous I can call you?"

I guess there are many, and there are – I’ve seen people write about them, types of categories of killer. Berkowitz and Zodiac were most certainly in the same category in regarding the ‘interaction’ with society. How or if that suggests a reliable correlation between their physiological states I’m not able to say or even speculate on.

( That hurt my brain bone)

David Berkowitz was one of the incarcerated murderers interviewed by Robert Ressler while putting VICAP together. In ‘Whoever Fights Monsters,’ Ressler recalls that the personality traits he observed in Berkowitz were closer to those he had previously observed in political assassins (namely, Sirhan Sirhan) than other serial/mass killers he’d interviewed up to that point.

Also, I think it was Ressler (though it may have been John Douglas – my recall isn’t 100% on this) who eventually elicited an admission from Berkowitz that his Son of Sam persona and the very idea that he was crazy were, in a word, bullshit. This may well apply to Zodiac and some of the zanier stuff he wrote about in his letters. Berkowitz also confessed that he would later return to the neighborhoods where he’d committed the shootings to park and relive his crimes, often masturbating while he did so. This would, by extension, suggest that Zodiac gained a similar sexual thrill from his activities, albeit after the fact.

David Berkowitz was one of the incarcerated murderers interviewed by Robert Ressler while putting VICAP together. In ‘Whoever Fights Monsters,’ Ressler recalls that the personality traits he observed in Berkowitz were closer to those he had previously observed in political assassins (namely, Sirhan Sirhan) than other serial/mass killers he’d interviewed up to that point.

Also, I think it was Ressler (though it may have been John Douglas – my recall isn’t 100% on this) who eventually elicited an admission from Berkowitz that his Son of Sam persona and the very idea that he was crazy were, in a word, bullshit. This may well apply to Zodiac and some of the zanier stuff he wrote about in his letters. Berkowitz also confessed that he would later return to the neighborhoods where he’d committed the shootings to park and relive his crimes, often masturbating while he did so. This would, by extension, suggest that Zodiac gained a similar sexual thrill from his activities, albeit after the fact.

That returning to the scene to masturbate or relive it, is very common among serial killers, wouldn’t be surprised if Z did too

Zodiac’s masturbatory habits aside…

I think it’s safe to say these letters make these guys "more" than what they are in every day life. Mediocre people with some strange lust to be more and this was one way they achieved it.

Obviously David Berkowitz (let’s call him what he is) had some sick desire to kill (mostly) women. His letters specifically point out women.

I think (as Trav so nicely points out above) that Berkowitz obviously mimicked Zodiac. "I love to hunt"…"fair game", etc., etc. Just like Zodiac most certainly got tidbits from the Jack-the-Ripper letters.

If you are a killer and want to taunt the police, it sort of a given one would say stuff like this, but the motive for the murders themselves helps to set the tone, imo.

I think (as Trav so nicely points out above) that Berkowitz obviously mimicked Zodiac. "I love to hunt"…"fair game", etc., etc. Just like Zodiac most certainly got tidbits from the Jack-the-Ripper letters.

Seems very likely, yes.

In general, it’s problematic to "diagnose" anyone based on their writing alone.

As far as the latter goes, however, I’d say that B is much more detailed, personal and explicit than Z. B provides reasons for his actions (crazy reasons, but reasons nonetheless, which can be – so to speak – readily understood). Why does Z kill, according to his statements?

He’s collecting slaves (no details offered).
He thinks it’s fun (no details offered).

Zodiac belongs in a distinct subset of serial killers that SOS is certainly a part of. The Monster of Florence is quite similar but he only sent one taunting letter that we know of.

By all accounts Berkowitz was very sick and his schizophrenia drove his crimes in ways different from the typical psychopathic killer.