This is exactly what makes this guy not Zodiac, imo. This person had some sort of mental, psychotic, NEED to stab someone. It’s much more personal. If we take into account the traditionally accepted Zodiac crimes, this was very much not his mo. So no, he didn’t shoot like Zodiac would have, he stabbed like he wanted to.

Alright. But like Iago I’m nothing if not critical. What you propose is implausible.

A guy who wanted to stab someone didn’t have to pretend to be Zodiac in order to do it. Nor would it have been an obvious choice.

You’re suggesting that someone with a need to stab was generally inspired by a killer who shot his victims. He also donned a costume with a symbol which was 100% superfluous for any killer whose intention was partly to lay the blame on someone else. He intended to kill Bryan too. Nothing suggests otherwise. So why the symbol on the hood?

The door takes care of the connection. Why did he wear the costume?

Because, imo, he was psychologically f-ed up.

No, he certainly didn’t have to dress up to stab someone–no one even knows why Zodiac dressed up. Whoever it was had their own mentality as to why. I think it was just some crazy guy adopting the persona. I don’t think Zodiac needed to be national headlines for him to do it and I don’t think he had to shoot to show an influence.

Not trying to convince anyone–just explaining why I think the way I do.

I agree with Norse, why dress up just to stab them? You could stab them and just leave. The costume was very similar to Villain in the Most Dangerous Game as well. We know the Zodiac letters borrow from the Most Dangerous Game.

Also, we don’t obviously know if Bates was a Z Victim, but she was stabbed. We don’t know if Domingos & Edwards were Z Victims, but there was a knife used in that crime(to cut Linda’s bathing suit),and a rumor that WingWalker tracks were found. It could very well be a Z crime.

Maybe Z wanted to get up close & personal to his Victims, and shooting them wasn’t enough. Maybe he went back to shooting with the Stine killing after he left a Survivor, as there would be no doubt of the outcome. He could have easily slashed Stine’s throat,or tried to. Then again, maybe after he stabbed the couple, maybe he didnt get the thrill out of it he thought he would, and went back to a gun.

To me it’s obvious, as opposed to a Guy that went thru the trouble of making a crossed circle on the hood, then attacking to make people think he was the real Zodiac(but never mentioning it to the Victims),and practicing handwriting to look just like Z, and fool the State’s expert Z writing expert, all seems a little hard to swallow.
It’s obvious to me, the ONE and ONLY Zodiac Killer, the same Guy who wrote all of the Z letters, attacked at Berryessa, wore his hood for whatever reason, and wrote on the car door which is why it matched the other Z writing, its the most logical and likely answer. Maybe he thought they may know who he was when they saw the hood, maybe he decided not to mention it since they likely would take off running knowing they would be killed, hence the escaped Prisoner story

I agree with Norse, why dress up just to stab them?

We could ask the same of Zodiac.

I just see it so unlike the other crimes. So much so it does not appear to be him in my eyes. There are too many non-similarities for me not to question it. What’s SO obvious to some, isn’t so obvious to others.

I agree with Norse, why dress up just to stab them? You could stab them and just leave…

From a practical standpoint, could the costume have been to prevent being covered in blood? Stabbing is a messy business. Maybe Z figured he’d "do his thing", then remove and bag the costume, hide it in his trunk, and drive home without being blood-soaked. Otherwise, how does he clean up to make his escape?

He never intended his victims to live to describe the costume, so it must’ve had another purpose, and that one makes sense to me.

Team Zodiac: Sure there have been "team" killers, but usually they are just two people who commit the murders together, or they are just two separate murderers who happen to know each other, but their crimes are otherwise unrelated.

Has anyone EVER heard of a case where two people collaborated together on a series of murders, taking turns so that only one of them would be present at the crime scene at a time, and fooling the police into think that it was a single perp? I know that I have never heard of that happening, so I’d go so far as to say that if that is true, it would be the first time in history.

I just see it so unlike the other crimes.

which other crimes? i’ve gone through the same thought process about lb and, for me, it comes down to a small sample size of crimes. we are fairly certain he committed four. we don’t know much about lhr other than he used a gun, kill a couple at a lover’s lane type place, and was probably traveling by car. brs had a survivor so we know a bit more – again he used a gun, tried to kill a couple at a lover’s lane, and traveled by car. we know he didn’t talk to the victims. however this time he called in the crime from a phone. that’s different (we assume) from lhr. from there the popular thought seems to be ‘since those two crimes are fairly similar then all of his crimes should be similar’ but the next two are completely different. for lb he used a knife, a disguise, talked to the victims extensively, and left a message at the crime scene. that’s all very different (we assume the talking part is different but we don’t know if he talked to the victims at lhr so maybe brs was the different crime) but the similarities are that he tried to kill a couple at a lover’s lane, traveled by car, and called in the crime from a phone. for sf he used a gun but basically everything else is different – he didn’t use a car as his base of operations (taxi doesn’t count), he didn’t target a young couple at a lover’s lane, he didn’t call in the crime. he may have talked to the victim extensively, in fact it’s likely he at least had a conversation as anyone who’s taken a ride in a taxi knows.

what does this tell us? one of two things – either he was a lot more random that he’s given credit for being or it’s really hard to draw larger conclusions from four crimes. with the ons/ears killer you have fifty or so crime scenes and you can draw a LOT more inferences from patterns because they repeat themselves again and again. with zodiac, unless you start adding bates, lass, and the others you’re really only working with four crimes which can skew any perceived patterns. just my 2 cents.

I just see it so unlike the other crimes.

which other crimes? i’ve gone through the same thought process about lb and, for me, it comes down to a small sample size of crimes. we are fairly certain he committed four. we don’t know much about lhr other than he used a gun, kill a couple at a lover’s lane type place, and was probably traveling by car. brs had a survivor so we know a bit more – again he used a gun, tried to kill a couple at a lover’s lane, and traveled by car. we know he didn’t talk to the victims. however this time he called in the crime from a phone. that’s different (we assume) from lhr. from there the popular thought seems to be ‘since those two crimes are fairly similar then all of his crimes should be similar’ but the next two are completely different. for lb he used a knife, a disguise, talked to the victims extensively, and left a message at the crime scene. that’s all very different (we assume the talking part is different but we don’t know if he talked to the victims at lhr so maybe brs was the different crime) but the similarities are that he tried to kill a couple at a lover’s lane, traveled by car, and called in the crime from a phone. for sf he used a gun but basically everything else is different – he didn’t use a car as his base of operations (taxi doesn’t count), he didn’t target a young couple at a lover’s lane, he didn’t call in the crime. he may have talked to the victim extensively, in fact it’s likely he at least had a conversation as anyone who’s taken a ride in a taxi knows.

what does this tell us? one of two things – either he was a lot more random that he’s given credit for being or it’s really hard to draw larger conclusions from four crimes. with the ons/ears killer you have fifty or so crime scenes and you can draw a LOT more inferences from patterns because they repeat themselves again and again. with zodiac, unless you start adding bates, lass, and the others you’re really only working with four crimes which can skew any perceived patterns. just my 2 cents.

He used a gun at all of those–quickly in and for the most part, quickly out.

He may have talked to them at LHR (of course we’ll never know), but no matter what he was in and out. Not enough time for a tale such as LB.

BRS, no words, a gun, in and out.

Paul Stine–we know he had to talk to him at one point, if at the very least to tell Zodiac where he was going, but we have a gun–shoot, clean up, get Paul’s things (which for sure, this being a man and taking items is different, but he wanted something to prove himself this time)–get out. He wanted proof with Paul. Why so soon after Lake Berryessa?

And he chose to write & share descriptively about all of them, except Lake Berryessa.

Tying someone up and viciously stabbing them, having long conversations with them telling tales is different, and maybe Zodiac was in a different state of mind. For me, there is just something way off about LB.

I agree with Norse, why dress up just to stab them?

We could ask the same of Zodiac.

I just see it so unlike the other crimes. So much so it does not appear to be him in my eyes. There are too many non-similarities for me not to question it. What’s SO obvious to some, isn’t so obvious to others.

I understand that – and there are serious discrepancies, certainly.

My point still remains this, however: Even though LB is odd, for Z – it’s even odder that someone decides to copycat Z (but not really, not fully).

Look at what he actually did: He talked to them – extensively, as masootz says above. This is an extremely important point. As I’ve said before, the dialogue between Z and Bryan is absurd, utterly so. He shows up in some sort of garb, clearly a costume, one with his symbol on it – but he doesn’t make a single reference to this. He does not, at any point, state or even allude to the fact that he is the Zodiac killer. Everything he says is designed for a particular purpose: To keep his victims calm. They’re not supposed to freak out, he’s just an escaped convict looking for a ride to Mexico.

Does this make sense – for the Zodiac killer? Well, sort of.

Does it make sense for someone trying to copy the Zodiac killer? No. It does not.

That’s where I stand on this. It’s absurd enough – but it’s far more absurd if we assume it wasn’t him.

I don’t think it’s absurd at all, but that’s just me.

Zodiac wasn’t big on "Zodiac" yet. But if Zodiac wore the costume, why wouldn’t HE say he was Zodiac? Even with the phone call? If it was to keep them calm, why put a circle-cross on it at all?

I’m surprised anyone could stay calm with that crazy get up, but whoever it was apparently wanted to keep them calm and would have a need to if they wanted to tie them up.

A big part of it for me personally is that (and I know this will sound weird) Zodiac seems like a man who was more cowardly and shot people because he didn’t enjoy the kill as he claimed. I think that was all bs. He wasn’t some super comic book villain with a psychotic need to viciously stab someone and make freaky costumes. To me, this guy thought he was mimicking Zodiac–but he had his own way he wanted to kill.

I know most won’t see it my way. LB was the freakiest of all Zodiac crimes and isn’t easily dismissed–and I’m not saying it should be, but I wouldn’t rule out some other nut job because they were locked up when Stine, etc. were killed.

I agree with Norse, why dress up just to stab them? You could stab them and just leave…

From a practical standpoint, could the costume have been to prevent being covered in blood? Stabbing is a messy business. Maybe Z figured he’d "do his thing", then remove and bag the costume, hide it in his trunk, and drive home without being blood-soaked. Otherwise, how does he clean up to make his escape?

He never intended his victims to live to describe the costume, so it must’ve had another purpose, and that one makes sense to me.

It does make sense. Although he could have achieved that with less bizarreness.

What would’ve been dramatic is if he’d sent the bloody outfit to LE, much like he did later with bits of the Stine shirt. Or, if he hid it somewhere and left clues to its location, that were never figured out. That would explain why the Z identifiers on the costume.

Or, maybe that had been the plan, but he accidentally cut himself with the knife, and was afraid some of his blood got onto the costume…

Personally, I don’t think he made/wore that outfit because of some bizarre ritual. I think he was playing with people with the whole Z persona, rather than actually taking it seriously himself. But, who knows. Maybe it was about him "becoming" Z.

Side note: Does anyone have theories on where the Z costume, the rest of Paul Stine’s shirt, and possible other trophies may have been stashed? I wonder if those things still exist, hidden somewhere.

I agree with Norse, why dress up just to stab them?

We could ask the same of Zodiac.

I just see it so unlike the other crimes. So much so it does not appear to be him in my eyes. There are too many non-similarities for me not to question it. What’s SO obvious to some, isn’t so obvious to others.

I understand that – and there are serious discrepancies, certainly.

My point still remains this, however: Even though LB is odd, for Z – it’s even odder that someone decides to copycat Z (but not really, not fully).

Look at what he actually did: He talked to them – extensively, as masootz says above. This is an extremely important point. As I’ve said before, the dialogue between Z and Bryan is absurd, utterly so. He shows up in some sort of garb, clearly a costume, one with his symbol on it – but he doesn’t make a single reference to this. He does not, at any point, state or even allude to the fact that he is the Zodiac killer. Everything he says is designed for a particular purpose: To keep his victims calm. They’re not supposed to freak out, he’s just an escaped convict looking for a ride to Mexico.

Does this make sense – for the Zodiac killer? Well, sort of.

Does it make sense for someone trying to copy the Zodiac killer? No. It does not.

That’s where I stand on this. It’s absurd enough – but it’s far more absurd if we assume it wasn’t him.

Plus, if he told them he was Z, and somehow things went bad and the cops came, or Hartnell got the better of him, now they would know they had Zodiac who had previously murdered people and he gets in a lot more trouble. If things go wrong, and he is caught but didn’t tell them he was Z, then they would just have him for Robbery not murder,which is same reason not to use one of the previous murder weapons at lake B(of course, when they found his hood w/crosshair, I am sure they would wind up busting him as Z anyhow)

What would’ve been dramatic is if he’d sent the bloody outfit to LE, much like he did later with bits of the Stine shirt. Or, if he hid it somewhere and left clues to its location, that were never figured out. That would explain why the Z identifiers on the costume.

Or, maybe that had been the plan, but he accidentally cut himself with the knife, and was afraid some of his blood got onto the costume…

Personally, I don’t think he made/wore that outfit because of some bizarre ritual. I think he was playing with people with the whole Z persona, rather than actually taking it seriously himself. But, who knows. Maybe it was about him "becoming" Z.

Side note: Does anyone have theories on where the Z costume, the rest of Paul Stine’s shirt, and possible other trophies may have been stashed? I wonder if those things still exist, hidden somewhere.

There have been a few statements about what happened to the hood. Sandy Betts, a member here has mentioned it was left in her car. And another statement about where it was found that I won’t even acknowledge…. I think some of Zodiac’s things are somewhere in existence.

I think Z likely got rid of any incriminating evidence long ago,or maybe held on to one special item. I was actually discussing this stuff with Vallejo Detective Poyser, and he was of the opinion that Z kept a lot of this stuff to go back and revisit and remember his crimes. I could definitely see Z wanting to hold onto this stuff as trophies,etc, but I don’t know how smart he would be in doing so. I still hope Z is alive and has stuff stashed away waiting to be discovered upon his death, but I doubt it.