Personally speaking, I lean heavily towards the cases not being linked. I know rape is about power and not sex; however I see Z’s murders as being more about the game than the power over the victims. I also have a feeling that Z was either impotent or A-sexual. I would imagine that he flirted with girls and even had crushes on some, but that it was more society pressure than true feelings. What I mean by that is society tells guys they should be in a relationship with a girl and therefore he tried. If Z did kill Cheri (personally I believe that he did), then I think he did have a crush on her, but again not in the same sense as most. I think it’s possible that Z found her attractive and she was nice to him, so in his mind he decided she would be the one to be with him. I think he knew her and set up the car situations as a way to be seen as a hero in her eyes and when they began talking she mentioned that she just got engaged. I don’t believe the person that killed Cheri set out to murder her (nor do I think he said to her that it’s “time to die”, I think that was added for theatrics) but rather got upset and grabbed their pocket knife before even realizing what was happening.

I feel Z’s lack of true desire to be with a girl was part of what upset him and why he went after couples. Society told him he should be part of a couple and he was angry that he did not have that desire; therefore he attacked people that he believed were in a relationship. I believe that Paul Stine was a different motive all around. I think that was just a different part of his game and he wanted to show the police that he could change his MO anytime he wanted. He made the rules and he was in charge of the game.

Wow! Great post, Susie! Of course, I may be so enthusiastic because we agree on the Bates case, and Z’s motivations. THE CONFESSION, in a bassackwards kind of way, almost apologizes for Z not having "manned up" and raped Cheri. Nor did he take advantage of Cecilia Shepard after he’d bound her and Hartnell. The "ordinary" sadist would have gotten a kick out of raping her in front of her boyfriend. Further, if Z were bold enough to murder in broad daylight, the possibility of being caught raping Shepard wouldn’t have deterred him from forcing himself upon her.

Behavior aside, there’s some evidence of the ONS being a teenager at the time of the initial wave of crimes in Visalia. That would make him far too young to have also been Zodiac.

I think it’s likely that the Zodiac & GSK are not related, but the similarities I mentioned in my first post are interesting. But, like so many things in the Z case, could be coincidence.

I’m going to only briefly reply to the post at this time and devote more time to it in the next few days. I personally believe the two cases are closely connected. In fact, I am not a Zodiac Killer researcher at all. For the last three years, I have been heavily involved in the current and open ONS cases. I have personally tracked POI’s and have worked directly with LE in Orange County, Sac, Santa Barbara, Los Angeles and Ventura on the ONS case. I would not be at this site if I did not find a trail here (through Ted Kaczynski).

ONS may not have been Zodiac, but IMO he was involved in the Zodiac cases or Zodiac was involved in the ONS cases. I’m still trying to figure that out. I recommend looking at the MK ULTRA thread, as well as the Process Church thread. These are Zodiac’s connections to ONS.

Also, Maverick Airlines is a huge connection to the CIA and Iran Contra, which leads back to MK Ultra.

I’ll comment more on this topic soon.

I’m going to only briefly reply to the post at this time and devote more time to it in the next few days. I personally believe the two cases are closely connected. In fact, I am not a Zodiac Killer researcher at all. For the last three years, I have been heavily involved in the current and open ONS cases. I have personally tracked POI’s and have worked directly with LE in Orange County, Sac, Santa Barbara, Los Angeles and Ventura on the ONS case. I would not be at this site if I did not find a trail here (through Ted Kaczynski).

ONS may not have been Zodiac, but IMO he was involved in the Zodiac cases or Zodiac was involved in the ONS cases. I’m still trying to figure that out. I recommend looking at the MK ULTRA thread, as well as the Process Church thread. These are Zodiac’s connections to ONS.

Also, Maverick Airlines is a huge connection to the CIA and Iran Contra, which leads back to MK Ultra.

I’ll comment more on this topic soon.

Interesting Darla. Are you familiar with Michelle McNamara’s work with the GSK case?? She is well versed in the case, and has a book forthcoming about it

Just on the limited amount I know about the GSK case, I think the Suspect pool could be pretty small. We are looking for a man that was in Santa Barbara area, circa 1975, went to Sacramento during 76-79, and then would up back in Santa Barbara area 1979-86. Realistically, how many men could fall into this timeline/category? Not many. Somebody out there knows a Man who fits these locations at these various intervals.

Also, the knots ‘Diamond Knots’ used by the Killer show a possible ranch background, there were ranches around Santa Barbara(of course in other areas too)

Hi-

The reason they cannot be one and the same is that their signatures could not be any different it they tried. One was an anger driven rapist who graduated to murder, the other killed for power and boasted publicly about his crimes. What is similar? Z never broke into anyone’s house, not even 3712. People also used to think that Z and BTK were the same person. Why, I don’t have any idea.

Mike

Interesting Darla. Are you familiar with Michelle McNamara’s work with the GSK case?? She is well versed in the case, and has a book forthcoming about it

1) Yes. Michelle is a regular contributor on the ONS board that I frequently posted to. I used to think that her follow up story about ONS being a Cowboy was garbage. But, in fact, the trail does seem to suggest that he might be a cowboy or lived in the west (Montana?). He wore a double guns belt buckle that impressed on several victims bodies. No one has ever identified this buckle. Michelle has also suggested that the pennies he took (a bucketful) were for ranch work. Many of the researchers (including me) believe that ONS was taking them because he was a coin collector. There is some evidence that ONS may have turned in silver dollars he stole for cash as a liquor store in Santa Barbara near the attacks, suggesting he, at one point, lived close to the scene of the crimes in Goleta.

Paint evidence seems to be very important to the ONS case. This is from the ONS board:
__________________________________________
The paint is broken down in this way:
#25 smear on fence and gate flakes on bedding
#26 flakes on shoelaces, vacuum residue flakes living room. bedroom, closet flake in head hair
#27 flakes on shoelaces, pair of boots, vacuum residue

There was also a yellow paint smear on a towel in another Sac rape.

portofleith
Oct 22, 2014 at 11:34am sacfisherking said:
"To Sandia-Yes I was under the impression that they were tiny paint flecks or microscopic from what was discussed about them prior on the board. That is one of the things that caught my attention about what Shelby says…..he called them "smears" which in my mind is a totally different thing. Very curious indeed I think it is one of the things that needs to be cleared up. If they were in fact "smears" then I would lean that EAR did them on purpose. If they were flecks then I would think something very different. It makes me curious if Shelby knows the difference for sure, or if he is aware of this particular piece of evidence? Like I have said before he is pretty free with his opinion so this maybe just something he heard about that he feels others are placing too much importance on and he is dismissive of it."

The paint flecks were found at three sequential rapes between 10/29/77-12/2/77.
There were smears of a grayish paint on the fence. The blue paint samples can be described as:
Paint flakes were found in at least three of the EAR Sacramento rapes. Flakes of a color close to the Ditzler PPG colors 13589 and 13602 were deemed:
not to be of automotive origin
contained phthalo blue and silicates
miniscule flakes were found in a middle bedroom on bedcovers and floor, a flake in victim’s hair, 2 chips found at sliding glass door entrance
one flake in master bedroom closet
flake found on wooden gate post in backard
It was also determined that the flakes did not come from EAR’s clothing or a hard tool, but rather from a pliable material consistent with a tool bag or duffel bag.

It leads me to believe that EAR was setting down a bag that may have had slight specks of paint from a job site. In this color chart, it indicates that similar color matches were used to paint fleet trucks and airliners, but the flecks were not glossy but flat. Here is the color sample:
paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedisplay.cgi?ditzler=13602&rows=50&sort=ditzler"

******

"Post by Agent99 aka Sandia on Dec 31, 2013 at 1:26pm
I am repeating things I have not personally verified but I believe the people that told me. First the Apollo Airlines card, it had not occurred to me to be a plant and I doubt it was, it seems too random, too subtle to be an attempt at misdirection or an attempt at framing. I have been told that the card did belong to Dr. Offerman. That seems to make sense to me. He was an affluent doctor and businessman and flying would seem to fit with him and his lifestyle, at least that is how it seems to me.

Next again I have no way to verify this but have been told that Apollo Airlines offered free shuttle service for it’s employees back and forth to Sacramento from Santa Barbara.

Third, wasn’t this a special type of paint for use in waterproofing concrete or block walls and generally used commercially. Wasn’t the color always the same cobalt blue? The paint being used in construction is of note to me if that is correct information. I guess the same color being found in at least 3 locations, 2 locations rape locations in No. Cal and 1 location being a murder location in Irvine, spanning years indicates that the paint did not fleck off shoes or clothing but rather something that would last over the years and not be laundered such as a gym bag or some sort of bag and if the bag had been set down in fresh paint and then it subsequently dried and then at some point started to deteriorate and flake off could explain the same color and type of paint and not indicate that if GSK was a painter that he always used the same color and type of paint and could indicate he wasn’t a painter at all but just present one time where fresh paint was and he set the bag down in it. That is the scenario I have pictured in my head. Not saying it right.

One other thing, I have been told that the nose of Apollo Airlines was the exact match as to color but I have also heard that this type of paint would not have been used on planes. I wonder if the nose cone of the plane though would have been a different type of texture or type of paint than the rest of the plane.

The security officer’s badge, I have always thought was a red herring, an attempt at misdirection or an attempt at framing. Yes, I’m still on my framing theory. There was also a hat "an Overhead Door" hat that was found, would that indicate he worked for a company that installed garage doors, or is it another attempt at misdirection/framing. Somehow I don’t think the hat, the badge, the jacket were left by accident.

That’s my two cents worth, take it for what it’s worth."
__________________

2) The other big connections between Zodiac and ONS is that they both murdered couples. Also, ONS both shot and bludgeoned his victims, and not all of his female murder victims were raped. Also, during the SAC rapes, he was sometime was not erect during the attacks, which makes me think that he wasn’t always motivated by sexual conquest, and more likely, the attacks were about power, which, I think is similar to Zodiac. He also contacted LE and the media and declared his attacks before they happened and took credit for them after they happened, (ie "Excitment’s Crave" poem, "Dumb MoFer’s Call"). Here are the murders:

http://www.ear-ons.com/crimes.html

DATE
LOCATION DESCRIPTION
#1
12/30/79 Sun
Avenida Pequena Ave., Goleta, Santa Barbara County, CA
Alexandria Manning (murdered)
#2
12/30/79 Sun
(Same Location as above)
Dr. Robert Offerman (murdered)

#3
3/13/80 Thu
High Point Drive, Ventura County, CA
Charlene Smith (raped, murdered)
#4
3/13/80 Thu
(Same Location as above)
Lyman Smith (murdered)

#5
8/19/80 Tue
Cockleshell Dr., Dana Point, CA
Patrice Harrington (raped, murdered)
#6
8/19/80 Tue
(Same Location as above)
Keith Harrington (murdered)

#7
2/5/81 Thu
35 Columbus, Irvine, Orange County CA
Manuela Witthuhn (raped, murdered)

#8
7/27/81 Sun
Toltec Way, Goleta, Santa Barbara County, CA (half-mile from prev. Goleta site.)
Cheri Domingo (murdered)
#9
7/27/81 Sun
(Same Location as above)
Gregory Sanchez (murdered)

#10
5/4/86 Sun
13 Encina, Northwood Area, Irvine, Orange County, CA (mile from Witthun)
Janelle Lisa Cruz (raped, murdered)

_______________________________________________

3) Also from the ONS Board regarding Dr. Offerman’s murder and paint evidence. Note the mention of the dog. (There was a sighting of a man leaving with a dog from the Witthuhn condo, and bloody dog prints at the Domingo/Sanchez murder scenes.)

Revisiting the Offerman/Manning murders …..
Mar 4, 2015 at 8:10am QuotelikePost Options Post by Agent99 aka Sandia on Mar 4, 2015 at 8:10am
portofleith Avatar
Feb 28, 2015 at 2:48am portofleith said:
zforce Avatar
Feb 28, 2015 at 1:25am zforce said:
If even half the things mentioned here are true I think I can reasonably say ONS has a connection to the neighborhood. It’s that connection which brings him back 18 months later for D/S.

Was the dog ever inside at O/M? I known that paw prints and scraps fed to the dog were found outside the home, but I haven’t read where the hair was located.
There is no evidence that a dog was ever inside at the Offerman condo. The paw prints and food were found on the patio.

This is the burglary timeline:

8:00 p.m. home on Parejo Dr. – owner returned home to find home burglarized
8:05 p.m. home on Hanna Dr. burglarized
9:38 p.m. home on Queen Anne- owner returns home to find home burglarized- gone from 5:30 p.m.-9:30 p.m.
Neighbor saw individual on porch of this home at 6:30 p.m. and 7:00 p.m.
10:15 p.m. Harvard Lane home burglarized
10:21 p.m. Windsor Court- owners pull into driveway- see silhouette of man kicking their dog in living room.
House burglarized-
suspect jumps fence and disappears into Mountain View Elementary
12:00 a.m. neighbor hears Offerman and a man and woman talking in parking area
3:05 a.m. gunshots heard by condo neighbors
5:30 a.m. paperboy and his mother see a white vehicle exiting the condo area- car had poor paint job

Zforce- I agree with you that he knew this neighborhood. It is not a particularly easy neighborhood to find from the 101 and is not visible from the freeway.

Note that the evening burglaries seemed to begin on Parejo, near Toltec. Parejo is the same street as the Taylor murder. Or did they start earlier that evening on Queen Anne? I suspect that ONS was up and down the creek bed several times that night.

According to the time line I have, the burglaries did start at 8:00 p.m. on Parejo but there were a few incidents on Queen Ann earlier.
6:10 p.m. a teenage girl that lives next door to the burglary victim on Queen Ann sees a female on the porch of the burglary victim.
7:00 P.M. the same girl sees an unidentified white male appearing to ring the doorbell of the same next door burglary victim.
7:30 p.m. the same girl exited her home to see what appeared to be the same person ringing the doorbell of the burglary victim.
8:00 p.m. burglary on Parejo
8:05 p.m. burglary on Hanna Drive
6:00 p.m. to 10:15 pm (estimated time of burglary 9:00 p.m.) home on Harvard Lane near Hanna is burglarized

(You probably are right about being up and down the creek, however at it appears he was for part of the time at least using a bicycle.
1:00 a.m. A bicycle was stolen from Offerman’s neighbor on Ave. Pequena and found at 936 Crown which is north of Queen Ann.)

One thing that stands out to me is that female knocking on the door. Is this a pure coincidence that she knocked on that door or was "she" the EAR/ONS. It is believed he wore disguises and wigs. At 7 p.m. in December it should be completely dark, could she have seen someone in a wig and just assumed it was a female? It would be nice if I had a description to see what clothing she wore. It was probably cold out at that time of night in December so if she/he was wearing a coat or jacket that would disguise the body shape. If the EAR/ONS went to that house three times, perhaps he would have put a wig on so to fool anyone taking note of that.

Dr. Offerman also had a big remodel done during one of EAR’s absences/summer breaks in the Sac area. The paint chip evidence from the Sac rapes was left when EAR reappeared in the Sac area that fall after the remodel of Dr. Offerman’s building.

Really a fascinating case, that I am afraid to examine too closely as I can’t afford to get too wrapped up in it the way I did with Zodiac(one obsession at a time). Thanks for your cliff notes, and I hope that you will continue to post in this thread about the GSK even if he is not Zodiac

Hi-

The reason they cannot be one and the same is that their signatures could not be any different it they tried. One was an anger driven rapist who graduated to murder, the other killed for power and boasted publicly about his crimes. What is similar? Z never broke into anyone’s house, not even 3712. People also used to think that Z and BTK were the same person. Why, I don’t have any idea.

Mike

FWIW, I agree, Mike.

Don’t see much of an essential similarity – superficial ones, obviously, but they seem to pop up rather quickly once you’re dealing with a maniac who kills people and manages not to get caught.

Can’t rule anything out, I suppose, but it would surprise me.

What does the literature say about this sort of thing? Are there any known examples of killers progressing in the manner we’re talking about here – from the known Z style (quick kills followed by letter campaigns/publicity seeking) to the known EAR/ONS style?

Strikes me as a pretty odd development for a serial killer on the face of it, but I’m no expert. As always, I’d love to hear from someone who is – an expert on the relevant kind of criminal behavior, that is.

THE POSSIBLE CONNECTION BETWEEN ZODIAC AND EAR/ONS

The Zodiac has been mentioned by some writers, researchers and investigators of the Original Night Stalker (ONS) as a possible suspect.

* Both sometimes attacked lone females, but both usually killed male/female couples.

* Both used a flashlight to blind their victims, had gun/knife/pre-cut lengths of rope, ordered the female to tie the male, sometimes wore a hood, targeted mostly middle class suburban areas

* In many of the probable Zodiac crimes in Sonoma County and Northern California, complex nautical knots were used to bind victims, similar to those used by the EAR/ONS.

* Both wore military clothes/boots/shoes, were never caught, exhibited high intelligence and planning, played games with the police and media, wrote letters to the media and wrote cryptic poems.

THE POSSIBLE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE 1963 SANTA BARBARA BEACH MURDERS OF DOMINGOS AND EDWARDS AND THE ZODIAC KILLER

There are many similarities between the Santa Barbara beach murders of Domingos and Edwards in June 1963 and the Zodiac Killer attack at Lake Berryessa in September 1969.

* In both murders we have as victims a male – female couple on a blanket by the water

* In both the attacker has a gun, knife and pre-cut rope.

* In both the attacker orders female to tie male, then binds them both.

* And like the Zodiac Killer attack on 12/20/68 at Lake Herman Road, a victim is shot in the back while running away.

* Also the exact same type of ammo was used at Santa Barbara 1963 and Zodiac attack on Lake Herman Road on 12/20/68 – .22 Winchester Western Super X, six right hand twists and grooves, indicating the same model of gun was used, and perhaps even the exact same weapon.

* There was an attempt to start an arson fire at Santa Barbara – in probable Zodiac victim Kathleen Johns her car was burned, and there are several other arsons close in time and space to suspected Zodiac crimes.

THE POSSIBLE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE UNCONFIRMED ZODIAC CRIME 1963 SANTA BARBARA BEACH MURDERS OF DOMINGOS AND EDWARDS AND THE ORIGINAL NIGHT STALKER

Similarities between the Santa Barbara beach attack in 1963 and many of the crimes of the Original Night Stalker include:

* Attacker ordering the female to tie the male

* The killer used complex nautical knots

* The killer put blanket over the bodies or faces of the victims

* The killer leaves burnt wood matches at the scene.

OTHER INFO: MESSAGES ON CARS AND UNUSUAL WALK

The Visalia Ransacker (VR) (who probably went on to become the EAR/ONS as new evidence confirms) was described as running "knock-kneed" and "effeminate". Interesting in light of descriptions of Zodiac walking with a "shuffling lope" and "semi-limp", and Z suspect Ted Kaczynski being pigeon toed so that it "affected the way he walked." A pigeon toed person might well be described as running "knock-kneed", as the VR/EAR/ONS was.

The Visalia Ransacker killed Professor Claude Snelling in the midst of a failed attempt to kidnap/murder his daughter Beth Snelling. A message found on a car window at Beth’s high school said BETH I’LL GET THE REST. Similar to BATES HAD TO DIE THERE WILL BE MORE? Both threats give a name and then promise more killings. Zodiac wrote a car door – the VR wrote on a car window.

ZODIAC KILLER: In the first report of Officer Fouke, he wrote that the man he saw walking away from the Stine crime scene – who was probably the Zodiac – had a "shuffling lope". The report is attached, and the key line in full is:

"Subject at no time appeared to be in a hurry walked with a shuffling lope, slightly bent forward head down."

It is not quite clear exactly what Fouke means, but apparently the walk of Zodiac was distinctive enough that he remembered it and felt it worthy to note. Fouke later amplified on this somewhat ambiguous description in the documentary on the Zodiac 2 Disc DVD. From a transcript provided by Doug Oswell and on the Howard Davis site, Fouke states it was a:

"lumbering gait, sort of stumbling along, like a semi-limp."

On 9/27/69 three college girls at Lake Berryessa felt they were being watched by a man who behaved oddly, hiding in his car and then behind trees. Some think this man could be the Zodiac. One of the girls, called "Lorna" by Robert Graysmith in Zodiac Unmasked, gives an interesting description on pp. 395-396, parts of which I relate here, with the key part emphasized:

He was not distinctive, just an average, normal plain person, other than he gave us the creeps…I remember his face as square, all sides symmetrical. I don’t remember him being pudgy, just compact…stocky, solid. The minute you mentioned the suspect was a swimmer, that felt so right about his body type. I wouldn’t say he had a limp, but he favored one leg when he walked. He was clean-cut, nice-looking, and wearing dark blue pants, pleated like suit pants, and a black sweatshirt with short sleeves, knitted at the ends."

VR/EAR/ONS: Walked "knock kneed", "effeminate". "a funny gait, as if he were bowlegged."

You can see my take on the EAR/ONS case an Zodiac and how it might relate to Ted K here: viewtopic.php?f=102&t=1220