simplest answer is, if the killer was zodiac, he read about the deer lodge escapes from july and used that as his cover. although i have read literally thousands of theories over the years regarding zodiac sending secret hints and clues, i have yet to see any convincing evidence of the reality of zodiac doing anything other than being random.

In his initial interview with the police, Hartnell said his attacker told him he escaped from a prison, that he didn’t known the name of it but thought it was somewhere in Colorado. I believe it was only after the detectives suggested Deer Lodge to Bryan that the Montana prison break story entered the Zodiac lore. If Z actually did mention Deer Lodge by name, I’m sure it’s only because he read about the ’68 break and used it to lend some credibility to his ruse, since it was news at the time. However, there’s no evidence in Bryan’s initial interview that Z was ever that specific.

In his initial interview with the police, Hartnell said his attacker told him he escaped from a prison, but didn’t known the name of it but thought it was somewhere in Colorado. I believe it was only after the detectives suggested Deer Lodge to Bryan that the Montana prison break story entered the Zodiac lore. If Z actually did mention Deer Lodge by name, I’m sure it’s only because he read about the ’68 break and used it to lend some credibility to his ruse, since it was news at the time. However, there’s no evidence in Bryan’s initial interview that Z was ever that specific.

haha, wow, i was just going to post almost exactly this. thank you!

the police report (ncsd crime report, page 6) indicates ranger white, who found the victims, stated "the male victim (hartnell) related to him that the subject advised him he was an ex-con out of Colorado".

the police report (ncsd crime report, page 17) indicating a preliminary conversation with hartnell indicated "suspect told victim he was sent to (?) Lodge State Prison (possibly Deer Lodge State Prison), Montana, for a killing".

in hartnell’s hospital interview (page 2) he says "and he (perp) says ‘nah.. time’s running short,’ he says, ’cause i just got out of…’ – some prison in Montana, I don’t know what the name of it is. Feathers? Do you know what the name of it is? I’ll see if it sounds familiar. Fern or Feathers? It’s some double name, like Fern Lock or something…" the cop then replies, "It’s Lodge" and Hartnell says "Oh yeah, yeah, Lodge. At least we know we’re together on that." Then the cop says "Mountain Lodge Prison, or something of that nature…"

i’m guessing someone checked out prisons in montana and came up with "deer lodge" although i agree with pettibon that i don’t see anything that specific anywhere except in the rumor mill.

In his initial interview with the police, Hartnell said his attacker told him he escaped from a prison, but didn’t known the name of it but thought it was somewhere in Colorado. I believe it was only after the detectives suggested Deer Lodge to Bryan that the Montana prison break story entered the Zodiac lore. If Z actually did mention Deer Lodge by name, I’m sure it’s only because he read about the ’68 break and used it to lend some credibility to his ruse, since it was news at the time. However, there’s no evidence in Bryan’s initial interview that Z was ever that specific.

I’ve stated that same thing several times. I have never believed there was a connection to Deer Lodge Prison. Even if Bryan was 100% positive that is what he stated, Z could have come up with that name from anywhere. I know people have argued that Deer Lodge had many issues back then and it may have been a cover-up and a guard was in fact murdered or that someone had escaped and was never caught, but I’m not buying it. I can not imagine that someone would not have come forward and stated that they had a relative that worked there and passed away under suspicious circumstances (if they tried to cover it up) or worked there and disappeared one night.

There were a LOT of newspaper articles about Deer Lodge escapees at the time…in Montana newspapers. So, I wouldn’t be surprised if Zodiac had some sort connection to Montana.

Also, Frank Dryman, Don Bujok & Ed Edwards, the former Deer Lodge inmates most often discussed in relation to Z:

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtop … =103&p=132

There were a LOT of newspaper articles about Deer Lodge escapees at the time…in Montana newspapers. So, I wouldn’t be surprised if Zodiac had some sort connection to Montana.

Also, Frank Dryman, Don Bujok & Ed Edwards, the former Deer Lodge inmates most often discussed in relation to Z:

viewtopic.php?t=103&p=132

Or that could be where Z came up with the idea of claiming he escaped from that prison if in fact that is the one he stated. I read the main book about Ed Edwards and even the person that was trying to claim he was Z glossed over those crimes without any real proof (or much circumstantial evidence). I believe it was also proven that either Don or Frank (I forget which one at this moment) that was the other main focus of Z was in prison during LHR attack. He was paroled before, but not actually released until after. I do not disagree that all three are men that committed horrific crimes but I do not believe that any of them were Z.

I mention a possible Montana connection for Z, as Deer Lodge escapees probably didn’t get a lot of press in CA. If any California papers covered the topic, someone will hopefully bring them to our attention — I get zero hits for them when searching Deer Lodge on Newspapers.com.

Both Dryman and Edwards were in prison during LHR. Bujok got out of prison just before LHR, but nobody’s been able to establish that he was in California at the time (if ever). I’m open to the possibility that Zodiac got the crime scene details from a secondhand source (all that stuff was in the newspapers and/or police files), so I personally wouldn’t exclude someone just because they were unavailable for LHR, but I know that’s not a popular view.

Edwards mentioned Zodiac in his book (pointing his finger at, many believe, Bujok) and Zodiac went quiet just before Edwards’ book came out. Edwards attacked couples, but he was on the small side (5′ 7" and 150 lbs. when first incarcerated), the handwriting samples out there aren’t terribly Zodiacish (though he was a bad speller) and he doesn’t bear much of a resemblance to the Zodiac sketches. We do have his voice from that game show he appeared on, I wonder if Bryan Hartnell has listened to it? But yeah, I agree, there are better suspects.

Vasa,

Have you thought that perhaps it is not a question of him being a prisoner or guard but what the prison itself represents to the zodiac? From 1920 to 1975 there was a prison theater at deer lodge where both prisoners and civilians attended. Considering the Zodiac liked plays, would it have been possible that the Zodiac attended one prior to the theater burning in 1975? Another point to consider also, which I think is more important to the case, is the funding for this theater. WA Clark, montana’s copper king, provided significant resources for this project. Clark was in a riff with Marcus Daly and F Augustus Heinz over mining in the area. Daly had backers such as George Hearst and John D Rockefeller. Both key players in the Zodiac case in other ways. John D Rockefeller, within his Standard Oil company, had Stephen V Harkness under the helm. Steven V Harkness is related by marriage to Frank Olin the founder of Western cartridge and the maker of super X ammo. Unless i am mistaken, i seem to recall that Steven v harkness was also a member of the sierra club. There is quite a little circle going on here where all these players seem to touch.

Soze

Vasa,

Have you thought that perhaps it is not a question of him being a prisoner or guard but what the prison itself represents to the zodiac? From 1920 to 1975 there was a prison theater at deer lodge where both prisoners and civilians attended. Considering the Zodiac liked plays, would it have been possible that the Zodiac attended one prior to the theater burning in 1975? Another point to consider also, which I think is more important to the case, is the funding for this theater. WA Clark, montana’s copper king, provided significant resources for this project. Clark was in a riff with Marcus Daly and F Augustus Heinz over mining in the area. Daly had backers such as George Hearst and John D Rockefeller. Both key players in the Zodiac case in other ways. John D Rockefeller, within his Standard Oil company, had Stephen V Harkness under the helm. Steven V Harkness is related by marriage to Frank Olin the founder of Western cartridge and the maker of super X ammo. Unless i am mistaken, i seem to recall that Steven v harkness was also a member of the sierra club. There is quite a little circle going on here where all these players seem to touch.

Soze

Interesting….I have not run across this theater in my research of the area, though I have to admit I did not look for it either so I probably would not have. I am familiar with WA Clark being buddies with Warden Conley from the prison. I will have to check into this a bit more.

Thanks!

I’ve also pondered this on several occasions. If the ranger’s statement is correct Hartnell initially said that Z claimed to be an escaped convict out of Colorado. He then, later, says Montana – and his initial suggestion is "Feathers", which he then changes to a two word name, something like "Fern Lock", upon which Robertson corrects him and says "Lodge", seemingly already convinced that the place in question is Deer Lodge (even though he can’t remember the "Deer" part).

Some points regarding this:

Going from Feathers to Fern (Lock) could indicate that the name given by Z did in fact start with an F. Fern Lock is a plausible name, as is Fern Lake (a fairly common name). The step from "Lock" to "Lodge" is an obvious one, whereas "Feathers" via "Fern" to "Deer" isn’t obvious at all.

If we assume that Z was indeed referring to an actual prison the list of candidates shorten – but isn’t it possible that he wasn’t referring to a real prison at all? If he claimed to have escaped from "Fern Lake Prison, Colorado" or even less specifically to "a prison" in "Fern Lake, Colorado", who were BH and CS to question his claim (at gunpoint in an extremely stressful situation)? It’s highly unlikely that a couple of college kids in California would have been familiar with the names of correctional facilities up in Colorado – and Z would have known this too, it’s common sense.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m sure there are plenty of good reasons to assume that Z was, in fact, referring to Deer Lodge (a real prison which was even somewhat famous, at least in Montana, at the time) – but on the other hand we have Colorado in the mix, and "Feathers" turned "Fern" which – regarded in isolation – doesn’t seem to point to Deer Lodge at all. The fact is that Hartnell – heavily sedated at the time – only agrees to this name after it’s suggested by Robertson. One may speculate as to whether he couldn’t equally well have landed on "Elk River Prison" if Robertson had suggested this.

Lastly, back to the ranger: He says Colorado in no uncertain terms. Could HE be mistaken? Colorado = Montana. It’s possible, I guess. But the most immediate explanation nevertheless seems to be that Hartnell did in fact say Colorado at first – and not Montana.

Just a thought – a possibility among dozens of others in this jungle of a case.

Well, the ranger also started the "stab me first" silliness…the first thing Bryan says in the interview transcript is, "some prison in Montana."

Well, the ranger also started the "stab me first" silliness…the first thing Bryan says in the interview transcript is, "some prison in Montana."

Yes – that’s a bit different, though. That’s embellishment – or whatever it is. Idiotic thing to say and seemingly mendacious rather than an honest mistake (either BH said it or he didn’t, doesn’t seem possible to obtain that piece of information through some sort of misinterpretation of what he actually said). But the guy’s propensity for creating melodrama out of a horribly real event notwithstanding, I can’t see any reason why he would get creative regarding which state the killer claimed to have escaped from.

Unless he simply was an all round terrible witness, incapable of remembering much at all and equally incapable of keeping the most basic facts straight.