"That bloody desk" I think it was entropy who referred to it as such.

It’s not hard to see why. I used to think nothing much of it. Wasn’t convinced either way if it was or it wasn’t connected. Then I was looking at the ‘citizen’ letter aka ‘badlands’ letter and I suddenly realized I’d seen those looping double L words somewhere before and went looking. Expected them to be in the main bulk of Zodiac writing but instead they were in the desk poem.

I was at the time trying to decide if the ‘citizen’ letter was from Zodiac. I’m still not sure as I’m still not sure about this desk. What I think I’ve discovered is an above average degree of similarity between the desk and the citizen letter. It is very "compelling", TY Gort, and I’m probably still of the opinion that whoever wrote that letter wrote that poem.

Here’s what I see as needing resolved, in my own mind anyway so that I could a bit more definite in certain areas. Basically everything! LOL, actually I shouldn’t laugh, it’s not far off that.

1. I need to re-compare the desk and the citizen letter. A more thorough and focused comparison to be as sure as I can be if there’s a link.

2. Compare the citizen letter to all of Zodiac’s accepted missives. Again for the same reason above, need to know if this links to zodiac.

Now if we got that nailed down we would certainly feel more confident in viewing these things as evidence. This is if we decide that there is reasonable visual evidence to show a connection. What if there isn’t? Should be simple, no connection.

It’s never that simple. Say we decide there’s no connection to Zodiac but that the desk and the letter are from the same person. That’s weird enough in itself to warrant a connection to the Zodiac case if even just through association and massive coincidence. This case either is or has become a web on so many levels. For me to be as sure as I can possibly be about anything involving handwriting in this case I think I would need to compare EVERYTHING all at once, envelopes and all to try and see the full picture. Even the contentious ones because those questions need answered or at least slightly more resolved.

I think that would be the Magnum Opus. A massive mural depicting how each piece of written evidence connects to another piece and a detailed examination of that, for every piece and also showing the opposite where they don’t connect and a detailed examination of those also. Tally up the score and then try and unravel the mysteries that throws at us.

"That bloody desk" is either vital or useless IMO. Nothing in-between but then it could be somewhere in the middle if …. AARRRGGGHHH!!!.

That desk is a frustrating puzzle piece, that’s for sure.

"That bloody desk" I think it was entropy who referred to it as such.

Yeah, that sounds like me anyway, at least if I was posting on my best behavior. There is absolutely no amount of handwriting analysis that can convince me that this has anything at all to do with the Zodiac case.

Keep in mind that hundreds of students probably passed through that library every day before and after Cheri Jo was killed. Bored students doodle and write on chairs and tables all of the time so that the potential for finding written "clews" near the scene is much higher than say… Lake Berryessa.

I’ve read hundreds of suicide notes in my day and have no doubt in my mind that this was written by a depressed female. Even if you disagree about the suicidal nature of this poem and think it is describing someone being killed, the link to the Bates murder is extremely tenuous, IMO.

Good discussion from ZKfacts in which Mike K. completely disagrees with me:

http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/forum/ … =46&t=1334

I would have to agree that the link to CJB is a tenuous one or rather to "her" murder. That said (while still willing to be convinced either way) I’ve never accepted that it could not have been her killer or Z, based on that argument. I do believe it was written before her murder and could well have been her killer,( Z or not) contemplating "a" murder and or doing damage to someone,not necessarily CJB. It could also reflect his thoughts/state of mind. I would generally tend towards Kelleher’s take…a message. I’m also highly suspicious of the given initials "rh", not least because someone with those initials were never found. Notwithstanding that fact that "rh" could stand for something other than Red Herring, I think the chances that they do, are high. I cannot reconcile that with the other side of the argument…a suicidal person simply not wanting to be identified. By definition, they would be designed to decieve and mislead. Other than that, Morrill did link the handwriting to Z and again while not being overconfident, as an amateur, it looks close to me. I believe it’s worth sticking with this (while remaining cautious) the CJB case for all intents and purposes, should have been easily solved. I genuinely believe there was something overlooked and that her killer was close to the RCC community. If that’s so and it was Z, it could present us with the best chance of identifying him and where he made his biggest mistake.
By the way, Entropy, in your experience, how do suicidal people sign off such notes?

Good byeeee…..uggghhhhh, thump!?

Sometimes the simplest explanation is best, isn’t it?

I can write a poem. I have in fact written a few, none of which were very good. But if I wrote one on self-cutting, does it mean I am a cutter? If I write one about murder, does it mean I am a murderer?
If I wrote one about suicide, does it mean I’ve killed myself? Probably not, because here I am, still living and still writing.

IMO, it’s a poem. No more, no less. Someone wrote it. We don’t know who wrote it, who or what it was about, and why is ascribed to Zodiac anyways, sigh.

I shall call it a creative work and leave it at that. I don’t believe (never have) that Zodiac had a DAMNED THING TO DO WITH IT.

-glurk

Glurk, entropy, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Trav, I’m still laughing about your rather tasteless post. *snort*
But I must also acknowledge of course that in my twisted view the letters weren’t written by her murderer(s), and the desk therefore can have very little significance whatever. Whoever wrote it, it’s extraordinarily unlikely to have been her killer. I’ll put it at 0.1% to handle the "mind-blowing coincidence" factor.
I think the Riverside Police were right to ignore the Bates letters, the Confession letter and the desk, when trying to find CJB’s murderer.
I’m not saying that their investigation has been perfectly conducted – I wouldn’t know, in truth – but it’s ironic that they’re often villified because they don’t care about the letters and don’t think it’s a "Z" crime, yet can’t comment on it (since it remains an open murder investigation) to defend that point of view.

by traveller1st » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:46 am

Good byeeee…..uggghhhhh, thump!?

Don’t know how to respond to that Trav, save to say, it would have been preferable had you outlined your objections in detail.

by traveller1st » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:46 am

Good byeeee…..uggghhhhh, thump!?

Don’t know how to respond to that Trav, save to say, it would have been preferable had you outlined your objections in detail.

It wasn’t an objection Weir, it was a suicidal person signing off. Smithy got it.

Was gonna quote you but then I thought it would weaken an already crap joke.

By the way, Entropy, in your experience, how do suicidal people sign off such notes?

Good byeeee…..uggghhhhh, thump!?

Ah yes, apologies, I walked into that one, twice. Didn’t know where you were coming from, given your earlier statement "That Bloody desk is either vital or useless".

No probs,

I did think myself after I’d written it that it sounded like I was implying I’d had enough of the conversation lol. If that had been the case though your response was very good and measured.

I would have to agree that the link to CJB is a tenuous one or rather to "her" murder. That said (while still willing to be convinced either way) I’ve never accepted that it could not have been her killer or Z, based on that argument. I do believe it was written before her murder and could well have been her killer,( Z or not) contemplating "a" murder and or doing damage to someone,not necessarily CJB. It could also reflect his thoughts/state of mind. I would generally tend towards Kelleher’s take…a message. I’m also highly suspicious of the given initials "rh", not least because someone with those initials were never found. Notwithstanding that fact that "rh" could stand for something other than Red Herring, I think the chances that they do, are high. I cannot reconcile that with the other side of the argument…a suicidal person simply not wanting to be identified. By definition, they would be designed to decieve and mislead. Other than that, Morrill did link the handwriting to Z and again while not being overconfident, as an amateur, it looks close to me. I believe it’s worth sticking with this (while remaining cautious) the CJB case for all intents and purposes, should have been easily solved. I genuinely believe there was something overlooked and that her killer was close to the RCC community. If that’s so and it was Z, it could present us with the best chance of identifying him and where he made his biggest mistake.
By the way, Entropy, in your experience, how do suicidal people sign off such notes?

Hi Wier… This is just one of many aspects of the case which evokes honest disagreement. I guess it is the idea of this poem being a message to anyone that I fundamentally disagree with. Zodiac was almost pushy in making sure his messages were seen and disseminated to the public (writing on the victim’s car door and demanding that his cipher and parts of his letter be printed in the newspaper by a given deadline). This was written on the underside of a folding desk, addressed to nobody and only discovered by pure accident some time (we have no idea how long) after it was written. I guess you could make a case that this was before Zodiac was Zodiac but it just seems like an awfully lame attempt at presenting a message if it is referring to CJB’s murder.

In my experience, if a suicide note is written as a message to friends or family, it is signed or at least the writer makes clear who is writing it. It’s a final personal message. I don’t view this as a suicide note at all but rather just the poetic musing of a depressed female writing in the 3rd person about the real or imagined act of cutting herself which, as smithy points out, often has no real suicidal intent. It’s obviously something that I feel strongly about but others like Mike K. disagree just as strongly. Vital or useless… yeah, I think that’s a conclusion we can all agree on.

My opinion is that (1) the poem does not refer to Cheri’s murder, (2) it was written long before she was killed, and (3) Zodiac was the author.

…In my experience, if a suicide note is written as a message to friends or family, it is signed or at least the writer makes clear who is writing it. It’s a final personal message. I don’t view this as a suicide note at all but rather just the poetic musing of a depressed female writing in the 3rd person about the real or imagined act of cutting herself which, as smithy points out, often has no real suicidal intent. It’s obviously something that I feel strongly about but others like Mike K. disagree just as strongly. Vital or useless… yeah, I think that’s a conclusion we can all agree on.

I agree…depressed female. Maybe she felt like no one gave a hoot.

Blood on her new dress!! Ah well…it was red anyway…another thing no one will care about.

I’d also bet whoever wrote it DID use their initials. It was their piece of work!

…In my experience, if a suicide note is written as a message to friends or family, it is signed or at least the writer makes clear who is writing it. It’s a final personal message. I don’t view this as a suicide note at all but rather just the poetic musing of a depressed female writing in the 3rd person about the real or imagined act of cutting herself which, as smithy points out, often has no real suicidal intent. It’s obviously something that I feel strongly about but others like Mike K. disagree just as strongly. Vital or useless… yeah, I think that’s a conclusion we can all agree on.

I agree…depressed female. Maybe she felt like no one gave a hoot.

Blood on her new dress!! Ah well…it was red anyway…another thing no one will care about.

I’d also bet whoever wrote it DID use their initials. It was their piece of work!

Could we find her? that would sort it out.