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Manalli — a working theory

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(@joedetective)
Posts: 276
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Hey everyone, long time viewer, first time poster here..

I’m not one for offering theories or POIs, but I cannot shake the idea that Manalli is the person who wrote the letters and who also wrote the message on Hartnell’s car. I was never one to buy into the assumption that more than one person was involved, but the evidence is leading me to believe that there has to be.

According to reports there were TWO suspicious men hanging around lake berryessa that day. One was described as dark, dark hair, well built, tall and handsome. Hartnell himself describes a shoter, heavyset man with blondish hair. I believe Manalli was that tall, dark-haired handsome man.

There are numerous reasons that lead me to this conclusion. Mainly, it’s the bizzare classified ad that mentions zodiac and a mysterious "imperial wizard" that appeared the day after Manalli’s death.

Manalli’s handwriting, phraseology, diction are dead ringers to the zodiac letters. He was a ww2 veteran.most experts agree zodiac had a military background. Plus, I think the "nice crumb" in the Janice Crum letter was a reference to The World Owes Me a Living.

I could go on. The chinese symbol on SRHM victim’s soy barrel showing up in a zodiac letter, the sadistic drawing of her found in manalli’s home, the tie in with him being a college teacher and all Zodiac victims being students, fact that communication stopped after Manalli’s death, despite Dirty harry film based on Zodiac and all sorts of stories in media that would entice the zodiac to speak. etc..

Anyone have thoughts on this?

 
Posted : March 24, 2014 8:45 pm
Pettibon Junction
(@pettibon-junction)
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I don’t think Hartnell ever said that the killer’s hair was blonde – only that it was long and greasy. Further, there’s nothing to suggest that the creep stalking people in the park that day was anyone other than the killer who called himself Zodiac. This is bolstered by the fact that this POI’s car matched exactly the white sedan seen at Lake Herman Road. (Never mind the fact that there was only ONE person seen sitting in it, chain-smoking and glaring at young women.) Plus the composite sketch is a REALLY good match for the person seen at Presidio Heights – the eyes and nose are identical – all that’s required is a haircut and a pair of glasses. Finally, the POI’s behavior is consistent with pre-offense behavior for this kind of killer.

I’ve never bought the two killers theory, mostly because the evidence doesn’t support it but also because I’ve seen it used by would-be sleuths to prop up suspects who’ve long been ruled out.

All that said, I didn’t mean to jump on ya. Welcome to the board.

"There are such devils."
-The Pledge

 
Posted : March 24, 2014 11:01 pm
morf13
(@morf13)
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Joedetective, 1st off, welcome to the board! :)

Manalli is one of my all time favorite Suspects, and while I have always found it hard to believe there could be a zodiac team, if there ever was one, I could see Fred being part of it. The personal ad, his writing styles,phrases,words,interests,subject matter,etc,all proven to mirror Zodiac’s. Use of the word SHALL,etc,all make Fred very interesting in my book.

The thing that has always been interesting, was that the mystery Guy at Berryessa seen by the girls, looks almost nothing like the SF Zodiac sketch, like they could be two different people,hence possibly a team. The man seen by the Girls at berryessa, was not proven to even be Z,but he was acting weird, and his clothes closely match the clothes of Hartnell’s attacker.

Manalli was 6ft3, which goes against most Z descriptions(although I try not to solely go by that),but one of the girls at Berryessa said that the mystery guy could have been 6ft2.

All in all, lots of interesting things about Fred,not the least of it being that personal ad

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : March 24, 2014 11:10 pm
Pettibon Junction
(@pettibon-junction)
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Joedetective, 1st off, welcome to the board! :)
The thing that has always been interesting, was that the mystery Guy at Berryessa seen by the girls, looks almost nothing like the SF Zodiac sketch, like they could be two different people,hence possibly a team. The man seen by the Girls at berryessa, was not proven to even be Z,but he was acting weird, and his clothes closely match the clothes of Hartnell’s attacker.

Morf, you really don’t think they look alike? All troubles with eyewitness testimony and composites aside, I’ve always thought the shape of the nose and eyes between the LB and PH sketches was downright eerie. I just think people get caught up on the hair and glasses which, really, are fluid descriptors.

That said, Manalli is an intriguing suspect, if not for Z then certainly in the Sonoma killings.

"There are such devils."
-The Pledge

 
Posted : March 24, 2014 11:15 pm
(@joedetective)
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Hey, thanks and no worries! I’m not tied to the theory. It’s just that Manalli looks sooo good when it comes to the letters but doesn’t work at all in regards to physical description. I guess I’m trying to figure a way to reconcile this. I’m pretty sure Hartnell did say zodiac had reddish/blondish hair. I remember he made the statement about how it glinted in the light.

 
Posted : March 24, 2014 11:22 pm
morf13
(@morf13)
Posts: 7527
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Joedetective, 1st off, welcome to the board! :)
The thing that has always been interesting, was that the mystery Guy at Berryessa seen by the girls, looks almost nothing like the SF Zodiac sketch, like they could be two different people,hence possibly a team. The man seen by the Girls at berryessa, was not proven to even be Z,but he was acting weird, and his clothes closely match the clothes of Hartnell’s attacker.

Morf, you really don’t think they look alike? All troubles with eyewitness testimony and composites aside, I’ve always thought the shape of the nose and eyes between the LB and PH sketches was downright eerie. I just think people get caught up on the hair and glasses which, really, are fluid descriptors.

That said, Manalli is an intriguing suspect, if not for Z then certainly in the Sonoma killings.

We actually put a pair of glasses on a photo of Fred, just to see what he looked like. He didn’t look way off, but didnt look like an exact match either. He was 6ft3,but had also put on alot of weight as he mentioned in a letter. Not saying that witness descriptions are always dead on, and I dont know how close the SF sketch matched zodiac in reality,guess we will find out if Z is ever caught. Alot of guys looked ‘like’ the sketch. Then again, look at Ross Sullivan(also in the suspect section),he is a dead ringer for the sketch, and Ipersonally like him as a suspect for alot of other reasons, but like I said, I try not to get hung up on looks alone. There was another suspect,a lesser known one, that as always been on my interest list too, a guy named George Saxberg. He looked alot like the sketch, and told people he was zodiac while he was in jail for being drunk in public. The police brought him in for questioning, and the next 2 days in a row, zodiac wrote letters and mailed them, the ONLY time he ever wrote two days in a row. I always thought the timing of that was interesting.

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : March 24, 2014 11:23 pm
Pettibon Junction
(@pettibon-junction)
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I’m pretty sure Hartnell did say zodiac had reddish/blondish hair. I remember he made the statement about how it glinted in the light.

You’ve got me thinking about the Zodiac’s hair now.

There have always been differing descriptions – curly pompadour at Blue Rock Springs, long and greasy (POI) at Lake Berryessa, cropped and reddish-blonde at Presidio Heights. Looking at pictures of Fred Manalli, it seems he went and back and forth between wearing his hair combed straight or (presumably) in a natural, wavy style. Perhaps his hair became especially frizzy when the air got humid, which, if he’s the killer, could explain the curly hair described by Mike Mageau on July 4th.

Dryer air and a date with the electric razor would neatly explain Berryessa and Presidio Heights.

"There are such devils."
-The Pledge

 
Posted : March 24, 2014 11:29 pm
Pettibon Junction
(@pettibon-junction)
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[quote="morf13 There was another suspect,a lesser known one, that as always been on my interest list too, a guy named George Saxberg. He looked alot like the sketch, and told people he was zodiac while he was in jail for being drunk in public. The police brought him in for questioning, and the next 2 days in a row, zodiac wrote letters and mailed them, the ONLY time he ever wrote two days in a row. I always thought the timing of that was interesting.

I’d love to know more about this Saxberg guy…

"There are such devils."
-The Pledge

 
Posted : March 24, 2014 11:39 pm
(@joedetective)
Posts: 276
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Hey morf, thanks. I’m a big fan of your site. Have to disagree on the physical description. Manalli had a big nose, was Italian, and very tall.. those kinda traits cannot be disguised. And fouke, who got the best look at him, describes a shortish man, reddish hair (possibly greying on sides) and of Welsh decent. Still I have to say your research on Manalli is hands down the most chilling of all the POIs, in terms of resemblances in handwriting and other connections.

 
Posted : March 24, 2014 11:42 pm
(@joedetective)
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Still possible Manalli was at Lake Berrydessa. Description not far off there.

 
Posted : March 25, 2014 12:06 am
pittsburgh_phil
(@pittsburgh_phil)
Posts: 180
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Hey morf, thanks. I’m a big fan of your site. Have to disagree on the physical description. Manalli had a big nose, was Italian, and very tall.. those kinda traits cannot be disguised. And fouke, who got the best look at him, describes a shortish man, reddish hair (possibly greying on sides) and of Welsh decent. Still I have to say your research on Manalli is hands down the most chilling of all the POIs, in terms of resemblances in handwriting and other connections.

That coupled with him being a POI in the Santa Rosa affair makes him doubly interesting to me.

 
Posted : March 25, 2014 6:58 am
(@capricorn)
Posts: 567
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Bryan Hartnell is the one who would most likely be the most helpful in ruling Manalli or any of the others in or out! Mike Mageau might be helpful as well.

I’ve read now about so many that seemed like "the one" that I think none of the ones named so far are Zodiac and agree with the poster who said earlier that Providence is responsible for his escaping …at least so far.

If people like Sandy Betts with her involvement, knowledge of the case and connections to LE can’t get her POI AND EVIDENCE checked out, how could anyone else who thought they might be able "to connect the dots" because they have a POI that seems as good as any of the ones named?

Further, I think it could be very likely that LE may have some POI’S who could still be alive and are investigating. Why would they make any such investigation public?

 
Posted : March 25, 2014 10:01 am
(@joedetective)
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The fact that Riverside investigators seem so adamant that Cheri Jo’s killer was not the Zodiac adds credence to the theory that the letter writer and the killer were two differnt people. Though they won’t come out and say it, it seems pretty obvious that DNA found on Bates does not match DNA from letters. Also, Welsh Chappie has a post going pointing out all sorts of interesting statements in the letters where the letter writer goes out of his way, almost too far out of his way, to force readers to believe the killer and writer are one in the same.

 
Posted : March 25, 2014 4:38 pm
(@joedetective)
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Ok, I’m just going to throw this out there. The worst that could happen is that it will prompt a few laughs. Here goes:

Is there a connection between Larry Kane, Alan Dorfman and Fred Manalli? I bring this up because of that odd personals ad telling zodiac his partner is in deep real estate but the imperial wizard can save him. Didn’t Kane sell real estate for Dorfman? It’s been established that Kane and Dorfman are connected, and that Dorfman was a notorious mob boss, I.e, hardcore criminal.

The only common denominator I can find for all three is that they are WW2 vets and that Dorfman lived in Illinois, state where Manalli is from. Most would agree zodiac had a military background and WW2 is alluded to in the janice crum letter, with the mention of The World Owes Me a Living. Plus, there are the Roosevelt stamps Zodiac was fond of using (Roosevelt was major player in ww2). Also the imperial wizard could be a stab at irony. Kane was jewish, and with the last name dorfman, alan I’m assuming is of Jewish ancestry too. ( imperial wizard is a kkk term. Kkk’s perceived enemy were Jews).

Like I said, I’m just throwing this out there. But if someone could confirm a dorfman (wizard)/ manalli (partner) / kane (zodiac) connection, it would make my day.

If both Johns and Fouke, who got the best look at zodiac, say he looked more like kane than any other suspect, and if you look at how much Manalli mirrors the letters in terms of style and handwriting, then a connection between these two would pretty much confirm my theory, at least to me anyway.

 
Posted : March 25, 2014 8:56 pm
Seagull
(@seagull)
Posts: 2309
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Hi Joe, welcome to the forum!

Manalli was not a WWII vet. He served in the military in the late ’50’s to early ’60’s, after the Korean War, before the Vietnam War. He was born in 1935 so would not have been old enough, the US involvement in WWII began in 1941.

You can see his DD214, military discharge, here-

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=360

www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com

 
Posted : March 25, 2014 10:33 pm
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