Even if Ross did shed some weight by October 1969, you’re still talking about a pretty big guy. The man described by Fouke and Zelms seemed to be pretty average in size. I do think he’s a good candidate for Riverside but not convinced that was a Z murder. Ross also had a breakdown in a phonebooth and was doing menial work — I’m just wondering if he had the required level of intelligence, pre-planning, and resources to be Zodiac in his free time.

In a bubble the Fouke description might make it seem like the man at PH was average weight. But we know the man at PH was Z, and we have other Z descriptions that all point to him being heavy set, beefy, and overweight.

PRO: Allen said Ross was very smart. Could come up with and carry out a plan.

PRO: The librarian said Ross always wore a wool flannel shirt even on hot days. The man seen at the Lake, on a warm day, was wearing a wool flannel shirt.

I don’t mean to dismiss what "Allen" has to say, but we are talking about 50 year old memories from a kid he knew in high school. I’m not saying that any of us could not remember someone was smart, and if they were smart I would like to think they could carry out a plan of some sort, but I kind of find it a little odd…that and his remembering a poem Ross wrote; even if only a couple of lines. I think it is a valid concern. I am not saying he’s lying, I just find it a bit curious.

Zodiac was never described as overweight. People can certainly be wrong with their presumptions, but I don’t see how people wouldn’t have said "the guy was huge"!

Well, Tahoe, I can tell you after talking to Allan 3 times for almost 3 hours, Allan is very sharp! His memories of Ross are very clear, and they flowed as we talked, so I think it’s a bit unfair for you t criticize his recollections and info.

About the flannel shirt thing, Allan told me that Ross had worn some time of shirt, frequently. He called it a name, a name I never heard of(maybe from the 50’s or 60’s?).I asked him it was like a windbreaker, he said no, it was like a flannel shirt…which immediately, a grunge rocker flannel is what popped into my head, but I still don’t know if that is the kind of flannel shirt he is talking about. He said he wore these to disguise his weight. Also I think he said "always out, never tucked in"

And again, as far as Z being heavy, He has been described by almost everybody as being some degree of overweight….Mageau Beefy but not blubbery fat. Fouke, Barrel chested, Hartnell, belly hanging over his belt. Allan said that Ross was "heavy but didn’t have rolls of fat", he was "solidly built", and what fat he did have, he tried to cover it up with clothes that helped hide it

Pro: Ross worked at the RCC Library. Zodiac didn’t write anymore after Ross died.

Grey area: He allegedly wrote poems, looked sorta like Z, lived sorta in the Z area.

Cons: Everything else. Ross has no connection to anything having to do with the word Zodiac. Never shown to own or have access to any of Z’s cars, nor guns, nor wing walker shoes, codes, military/navy, knot tying, Mikado, Belli, bombs, Paul Avery, etc.

Really Ross would never be a suspect if it wasn’t for one woman who said he was creepy. Sound familiar? The more I think about it the more I see Ross as being just like Arthur Leigh Allen, a loser in the wrong place that was easy to peg as a murderer and fudge all the other details to make them seem like they could fit.

Morf, you’re saying that his writing is a possible match is really leading and can come off as intentionally fabricating. Not being able to make a proper writing analysis is nowhere near the same thing as a possible match, other than that leaves everyone who has not been positively eliminated in the same camp, so pretty much every one ever.

Paul Avery, your bias is showing so much. "He signed RH because his first name is R and his dad’s name is H." Even though his middle name is M and his last name is S. Sure, he did something that made no sense, other than it connects him to the Zodiac if you put it that way. "Pro: He might have worn a watch" Seriously? He might have worn a Zodiac watch too then, right?

Allen had as much of a connection to Darlene Ferrin as Ross had to Cheri. Which is to say that he might have met her. They certainly weren’t best buddies. Allen’s timeline fits just as well as Ross does, and Allen admitting that he was in Riverside actually gives him even more of a connection to Z victims than Ross does.

I’ll give you that Ross was someone who definitely should have been checked out, but you guys are taking every single thing about him and trying to see how you can tie it to Zodiac, when those things can only be viewed as suspicious because you already think that he is a good suspect, and not the other way around. I don’t give a crap about Ross being smart and wearing flannel, that would never say "zodiac connection" unless you were trying to frame it that way.

Ross needs to be investigated more, and there are very good reasons to do just that. Nothing so far rulles him out, but ofcourse there are still a long way for him to be zodiac.

Even if Ross did shed some weight by October 1969, you’re still talking about a pretty big guy. The man described by Fouke and Zelms seemed to be pretty average in size. I do think he’s a good candidate for Riverside but not convinced that was a Z murder. Ross also had a breakdown in a phonebooth and was doing menial work — I’m just wondering if he had the required level of intelligence, pre-planning, and resources to be Zodiac in his free time.

In a bubble the Fouke description might make it seem like the man at PH was average weight. But we know the man at PH was Z, and we have other Z descriptions that all point to him being heavy set, beefy, and overweight.

PRO: Allen said Ross was very smart. Could come up with and carry out a plan.

PRO: The librarian said Ross always wore a wool flannel shirt even on hot days. The man seen at the Lake, on a warm day, was wearing a wool flannel shirt.

I don’t mean to dismiss what "Allen" has to say, but we are talking about 50 year old memories from a kid he knew in high school. I’m not saying that any of us could not remember someone was smart, and if they were smart I would like to think they could carry out a plan of some sort, but I kind of find it a little odd…that and his remembering a poem Ross wrote; even if only a couple of lines. I think it is a valid concern. I am not saying he’s lying, I just find it a bit curious.

Zodiac was never described as overweight. People can certainly be wrong with their presumptions, but I don’t see how people wouldn’t have said "the guy was huge"!

What are you talking about? Every single person who saw the Zodiac described him as large or overweight. Every single one, including Mike Mageau… It was literally the only thing every witness seems to agree on. Read the police reports.

Read the police reports.

How rude. You’re really accusing Tahoe of not having read the reports?

Con: having to resort to insults to prove your point.

I don’t have those memorized, but I’m pretty sure that the word "overweight" was in fact never used. Just words like "heavyset" that you chose to interpret as meaning "overweight". More twisting things around.

"…real heavyset, beefy build…not blubbery fat but real beefy…" (MM)

"…appeared to be heavy-set…" (BH)

"…heavy build…" (Stine witnesses)

"…medium heavy build…barrel chested…" (Fouke).

MM has Z as being "short", about 5’8. BH has him between 5’8 and 6’0. The PH teens agree with MM, with Fouke having him at 5’10.

If we combine MM’s "not blubbery" with Fouke’s "barrel chested" the impression is one of stockiness (possibly someone muscular) rather than out-of-shape/overweight.

BH is the only one who says anything which can be taken in the opposite direction, with his comment on the attacker’s belly, which appeared to be protruding, but he adds that this could have been just the shape of his jacket.

"…real heavyset, beefy build…not blubbery fat but real beefy…" (MM)

"…appeared to be heavy-set…" (BH)

"…heavy build…" (Stine witnesses)

"…medium heavy build…barrel chested…" (Fouke).

MM has Z as being "short", about 5’8. BH has him between 5’8 and 6’0. The PH teens agree with MM, with Fouke having him at 5’10.

yeah, all of these descriptions are of a heavier male, the only thing there that doesn’t line up with Ross is his height

Also, if we include the LB description from the three girls *, we get a somewhat taller person. They all have him at 6 feet or taller, IIRC.

* Which is problematic as we all know, but still. It could have been Z.

Pro: Ross worked at the RCC Library. Zodiac didn’t write anymore after Ross died.

Grey area: He allegedly wrote poems, looked sorta like Z, lived sorta in the Z area.

Cons: Everything else. Ross has no connection to anything having to do with the word Zodiac. Never shown to own or have access to any of Z’s cars, nor guns, nor wing walker shoes, codes, military/navy, knot tying, Mikado, Belli, bombs, Paul Avery, etc.

Really Ross would never be a suspect if it wasn’t for one woman who said he was creepy. Sound familiar? The more I think about it the more I see Ross as being just like Arthur Leigh Allen, a loser in the wrong place that was easy to peg as a murderer and fudge all the other details to make them seem like they could fit.

Morf, you’re saying that his writing is a possible match is really leading and can come off as intentionally fabricating. Not being able to make a proper writing analysis is nowhere near the same thing as a possible match, other than that leaves everyone who has not been positively eliminated in the same camp, so pretty much every one ever.

Paul Avery, your bias is showing so much. "He signed RH because his first name is R and his dad’s name is H." Even though his middle name is M and his last name is S. Sure, he did something that made no sense, other than it connects him to the Zodiac if you put it that way. "Pro: He might have worn a watch" Seriously? He might have worn a Zodiac watch too then, right?

Allen had as much of a connection to Darlene Ferrin as Ross had to Cheri. Which is to say that he might have met her. They certainly weren’t best buddies. Allen’s timeline fits just as well as Ross does, and Allen admitting that he was in Riverside actually gives him even more of a connection to Z victims than Ross does.

I’ll give you that Ross was someone who definitely should have been checked out, but you guys are taking every single thing about him and trying to see how you can tie it to Zodiac, when those things can only be viewed as suspicious because you already think that he is a good suspect, and not the other way around. I don’t give a crap about Ross being smart and wearing flannel, that would never say "zodiac connection" unless you were trying to frame it that way.

I’ll reply in red.

Grey area: He allegedly wrote poems, looked sorta like Z, lived sorta in the Z area.
No, he looked nearly identical to that sketch, right down to the widow’s peak hairline discussed by Fouke. Show me another Z suspect ever discussed that’s a closer match, you can’t. You are right, he was Sort of in the Z area, but I want to see if he was in Vallejo, Napa , or SF

Cons: Everything else. Ross has no connection to anything having to do with the word Zodiac. Never shown to own or have access to any of Z’s cars, nor guns, nor wing walker shoes, codes, military/navy, knot tying, Mikado, Belli, bombs, Paul Avery, etc.
Won’t argue any of this, because we just don’t know enough about him, and hope to know more soon. He did have a love of movies and poetry, something Z referred to and used. And we still don’t knpw how or why Z chose the name Zodiac, my guess is he took it from a watch, or stole it from Zode.

Really Ross would never be a suspect if it wasn’t for one woman who said he was creepy. Sound familiar? The more I think about it the more I see Ross as being just like Arthur Leigh Allen, a loser in the wrong place that was easy to peg as a murderer and fudge all the other details to make them seem like they could fit.
You’re right, but she did bring him up in the Bates case which connects to Zodiac along with letters & desktop.And it wasn’t "one woman" it was the whole library staff. And you compare Allen to Ross, Allen can’t be proven to have been in the rCC Libray like Ross, and he wasnt a dead ringer for the sketch like Ross.

Morf, you’re saying that his writing is a possible match is really leading and can come off as intentionally fabricating. Not being able to make a proper writing analysis is nowhere near the same thing as a possible match, other than that leaves everyone who has not been positively eliminated in the same camp, so pretty much every one ever.
Please don’t speak for me regarding the writing, there are similarities in some of Ross’s writing, and we need more samples.

Paul Avery, your bias is showing so much. "He signed RH because his first name is R and his dad’s name is H." Even though his middle name is M and his last name is S. Sure, he did something that made no sense, other than it connects him to the Zodiac if you put it that way. "Pro: He might have worn a watch" Seriously? He might have worn a Zodiac watch too then, right?
I can’t speak for Paul, I am not reaching for what the initials meant, I have always thought, or hoped they were simply the initials of the Author, but we see how far that has gotten us.

Allen had as much of a connection to Darlene Ferrin as Ross had to Cheri. Which is to say that he might have met her. They certainly weren’t best buddies. Allen’s timeline fits just as well as Ross does, and Allen admitting that he was in Riverside actually gives him even more of a connection to Z victims than Ross does.
That’s not true at all. You need to review all of these Ross pages. Ross’s Brother Tim, married Cheri’s good Friend Bonnie. Ross and Cheri knew each other, they could be placed in the RCC Library. Can anybody prove Leigh Allen knew Darlene? And so what if Allen went to Riverside, I have been to Ford’s Theater in Washington DC, but that doesn’t mean I shot President Lincoln. If Allen was in Riverside at any time other then when the letters were mailed, or Bates was killed, it’s pointless.

I’ll give you that Ross was someone who definitely should have been checked out, but you guys are taking every single thing about him and trying to see how you can tie it to Zodiac, when those things can only be viewed as suspicious because you already think that he is a good suspect, and not the other way around. I don’t give a crap about Ross being smart and wearing flannel, that would never say "zodiac connection" unless you were trying to frame it that way

Again, you are speaking for me, please don’t. Here’s what I feel about Ross,and all I know to be true-

1)He looked identical to the Z sketch,including widow’s peak hairline
2)He can be placed in RCC Library, where the desktop poem was linked to Z
3)Not lone before the murder, he had written a disturbing poem that spooked the Library staff
4)After the last Bates case letters were received, Ross went to the Bay area in time for the Z murders.
5) Ross had interest in acting, movies,poetry, which we have seen referenced in Z letters
6) Some similarity in writing to Z

Beyond all this, it’s speculation and we are trying to gather more evidence and writing, proof of residence during Z crimes, etc
Show me one other Suspect that you can place in the RCC Library that loks very close to the Z sketch……jeopardy music playing…time’s up, you can’t!

Paul Avery, your bias is showing so much. "He signed RH because his first name is R and his dad’s name is H." Even though his middle name is M and his last name is S. Sure, he did something that made no sense, other than it connects him to the Zodiac if you put it that way. "Pro: He might have worn a watch" Seriously? He might have worn a Zodiac watch too then, right?

Yes my bias is showing, and so is yours. I had a profile of what we were looking for long before Ross, and the more we learn about him, the more he fits.

Yes, his name starts with an R like on the desktop.
If you google watch size charts, many show that the watch that was found could fit Ross’s wrist. There is no proof that it couldn’t have fit his wrist.

You are more than welcome to come up with reasons Ross doesn’t fit. But many of you are grasping at straws at this point.

Ross is a top suspect and we are going to dig for clues until he is eliminated as a suspect, or proven to have been Zodiac. Blowing him off due to one piece of evidence is a mistake.

Read the police reports.

How rude. You’re really accusing Tahoe of not having read the reports?

Con: having to resort to insults to prove your point.

I don’t have those memorized, but I’m pretty sure that the word "overweight" was in fact never used. Just words like "heavyset" that you chose to interpret as meaning "overweight". More twisting things around.

No. I’m saying every police report has witnesses claiming the perp was heavy set or fat. That’s not rude, that’s a fact.

I think Tahoe’s point was that Z is never described explicitly as overweight, nor is he ever described as being a huge guy. The general impression – MM, BH, PH teens and Fouke – is rather that of someone stocky, beefy, etc.

It seems quite obvious that Ross was considerably bigger than the balance which emerges from the descriptions. Which is a problem – I don’t think we can simply overlook this.

PS To which I add that I don’t think witness descriptions are a deal breaker in this case unless whoever is put forth is wildly out of the ballpark. But if Ross was a tall 300 pounder in 1969, then that certainly can’t be called a pro.

I think Tahoe’s point was that Z is never described explicitly as overweight, nor is he ever described as being a huge guy. The general impression – MM, BH, PH teens and Fouke – is rather that of someone stocky, beefy, etc.

It seems quite obvious that Ross was considerably bigger than the balance which emerges from the descriptions. Which is a problem – I don’t think we can simply overlook this.

PS To which I add that I don’t think witness descriptions are a deal breaker in this case unless whoever is put forth is wildly out of the ballpark. But if Ross was a tall 300 pounder in 1969, then that certainly can’t be called a pro.

Tahoe’s point is invade because

Z was described as overweight by Cecelia Shepard

1:05:12 in this doc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0jnsb … rpiZeYt58k

I think Tahoe’s point was that Z is never described explicitly as overweight, nor is he ever described as being a huge guy. The general impression – MM, BH, PH teens and Fouke – is rather that of someone stocky, beefy, etc.

It seems quite obvious that Ross was considerably bigger than the balance which emerges from the descriptions. Which is a problem – I don’t think we can simply overlook this.

PS To which I add that I don’t think witness descriptions are a deal breaker in this case unless whoever is put forth is wildly out of the ballpark. But if Ross was a tall 300 pounder in 1969, then that certainly can’t be called a pro.

Tahoe’s point is invade because

Z was described as overweight by Cecelia Shepard

1:05:12 in this doc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0jnsb … rpiZeYt58k

She said "he was overweight, he was bulky". But to be fair, she also said he was shorter than Ross

I think Tahoe’s point was that Z is never described explicitly as overweight, nor is he ever described as being a huge guy. The general impression – MM, BH, PH teens and Fouke – is rather that of someone stocky, beefy, etc.

It seems quite obvious that Ross was considerably bigger than the balance which emerges from the descriptions. Which is a problem – I don’t think we can simply overlook this.

PS To which I add that I don’t think witness descriptions are a deal breaker in this case unless whoever is put forth is wildly out of the ballpark. But if Ross was a tall 300 pounder in 1969, then that certainly can’t be called a pro.

Exactly.

JeffP…no one ever said Zodiac was fat.

Paul_Averly…I don’t think you need to bold and enlarge the font to get your point across. WE HEAR YOU.

Actually, Officer Dave Collins said that–not Cecelia directly herself. Dave Collins also said Cecelia was the one who gave the description for the composite and investigators canvassed the area with it and found three young women in the same general area who were sunbathing.

Canvassed the area with the composite? The three girls were behind the composite…not Cecelia.

Do you see what I am getting at? Collins acts like he and Cecelia had this calm, casual conversation. He is also spewing bs about things that simply did not happen.

The man supposedly got a detailed description then felt it "not important" to report it….

Also, why don’t you mention the rest of what was said if you believe Collins? Cecelia put her attacker at around 200 pounds with brown hair. I won’t argue height as it would be close for sure. The shoe sizes don’t match Riverside.

Look, you certainly don’t have to like what I have to say, but there is no reason to get so upset by it. I am simply trying to look at the other side of it and show that things aren’t always so cut & dry.