A lot of people think that Ross couldn’t be z because due to his paranoid schizophrenia, he couldn’t be alert enough to make codes or ciphers like z did.

A mentally ill person would be more inclined to write compulsively.

A lot of people think that Ross couldn’t be z because due to his paranoid schizophrenia, he couldn’t be alert enough to make codes or ciphers like z did.

A mentally ill person would be more inclined to write compulsively.

You don’t see any compulsive rambling writing in any of z’s letters?

A lot of people think that Ross couldn’t be z because due to his paranoid schizophrenia, he couldn’t be alert enough to make codes or ciphers like z did.

A mentally ill person would be more inclined to write compulsively.

You don’t see any compulsive rambling writing in any of z’s letters?

Of course. I view the letters themselves as a compulsive act. I’m agreeing with you.

Many professional profilers believed Z had schizophrenia long before we knew about Ross.
We know a few things about Ross. He worked in a library and had to sit and work for periods of time. He was also very intelligent. (according to Allen)

Watch the film "The Imitation Game." It’s about radio communications during WWII, and how since the signals could be picked up by anyone, they had to come up with ways to encode the messages.

I think a major part of the Ross puzzle involves Harold Prue, his employer that had something to do with Ham Radio. If Ross was into that, he would learn about codes. Maybe Allen S remembers if Ross was into radio?

A lot of people think that Ross couldn’t be z because due to his paranoid schizophrenia, he couldn’t be alert enough to make codes or ciphers like z did.

Then I watched a movie last night that I hadn’t watched in a long time and had a ‘ahh hah’ moment.

A Beautiful Mind starring Russell Crowe. Who here has seen it? John Nash, a brilliant mathematician and Princeton legend, was a paranoid schizophrenic. Something tells me, he may have been good with ciphers, despite his mental illness. I would think the same could be true of Ross.

I’d love to hear from Doranchak to get his opinion on somebody like Ross or John Nash being able to make zodiacs ciphers

I use this example a couple weeks ago on this forum. Although I don’t completely see it in the same way as you. As you may remember John Nash was not seeing things that were actually there when he was having a serious episode. He thought it was there but in reality it wasn’t. That’s the way that I see the remaining ciphers. I don’t think there’s anything there. I think that Z had a message but put random symbols for the letters and I do not believe that it’s a true cipher. He knows what the message says but it’s not cracked because it’s impossible to crack.

I do not believe that mental illness, whoever was the infamous Z, has been an impediment to making codes.
Some time ago I read this article about -schizophrenia x intelligence
Study links gene intelligence to schizophrenia
 http://www.bbc.com/portuguese/reporterbbc/story/2007/02/070209_genioloucurag.shtml

"DNA
A study by American researchers showed that intelligence and schizophrenia may be linked by a gene that increases the brain’s ability to think.
The work, developed at the National Institute for Mental Health of the United States, in Bethesda, Maryland, indicates that schizophrenia, psychotic condition that affects about 60 million people worldwide, can be the risk that certain people have to run the extraordinary development of intellectual abilities.

The research, published in the Journal of Clinical Investigation, suggests that some of the genetic factors involved in cognitive abilities can present problems, leaving a portion of the individuals most likely to have mental problems.

They examined a common variation of a gene, DARPP-32, which causes the region of the brain responsible for more sophisticated reasoning is more efficient, thus improving the information transfer process.

However, the gene has also been linked to brain functions registered in patients with schizophrenia. An investigation of 257 families with a history of schizophrenia has shown that the gene is quite common among people with the disease.

The gene extends the information processing capacity, and when the brain functioning normally, the individual gain flexibility and to think a better memory performance.

However, other genes and the individual’s living conditions can cause the brain finds it difficult to manage this gain, causing a side effect. "It would be the neurological equivalent of a mega-highway ending in a dead end", compared researcher Daniel Weinberger, in an interview with British newspaper The Times.

Schizophrenia is a condition that can cause hallucinations and delusions and in very severe cases, cause the patient becomes unable to interact socially with others. It is estimated that about 1% of the world population have symptoms of the disease.

In history there are many examples of famous names who have been diagnosed as schizophrenic as the mathematician John Forbes Nash (portrayed in the film A Beautiful Mind), the musician Syd Barrett, former guitarist of Pink Floyd group, the American writer Jack Kerouac and French poet and playwright Antonin Artaud."

Marcelo

It’s worth noting that hypergraphia (intense, obsessive writing) is often linked to schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.

If Ross, or whoever was the Zodiac, has had such mental disorders, I think that in terms of codes, the Z340 is the mirror of this persona, chaotic and meaningless (meaningful to him only, remembered the Wain cats) but the fact that it existed the z408 is something contrary to that. (For there was a solution).

It would be interesting to get a history of "mental patients" whose IQ has been above average at that time, whether the suspects "classical" or not yet known, and who have lived in that region.(which is practically impossible to work)

And to be honest, of course, the Zodiac is or was a crazy guy, and every serial killer who ever existed and exists out there.

Marcelo

Well, John Nash was a genius who devised some of the most advanced math theorems of his time, and taught at one of the most prestigious universities in the world. He received treatment for his mental illness and that allowed him to function well enough to continue his job and to receive the Nobel prize for his work. So he would have been just fine to work on codes.

What about Ross? Was he a math genius? He worked in a library, and did he ever have another job? He was homeless, he was arrested, and he was ultimately institutionalized until his death at a young age. I would say his mental illness was a big limitation to him. Since he doesn’t appear to have any skills or training to make him particularly adept at writing codes, due to the previous fact, I would say that he would probably be worse at it than the average person.

The only other job besides working in the library at RCC that Ross had, for sure, was in food service at UC Santa Cruz. That factoid was in a 1968 Santa Cruz City Directory, posted here-

viewtopic.php?f=106&t=2654

Well, John Nash was a genius who devised some of the most advanced math theorems of his time, and taught at one of the most prestigious universities in the world. He received treatment for his mental illness and that allowed him to function well enough to continue his job and to receive the Nobel prize for his work. So he would have been just fine to work on codes.

What about Ross? Was he a math genius? He worked in a library, and did he ever have another job? He was homeless, he was arrested, and he was ultimately institutionalized until his death at a young age. I would say his mental illness was a big limitation to him. Since he doesn’t appear to have any skills or training to make him particularly adept at writing codes, due to the previous fact, I would say that he would probably be worse at it than the average person.

Based on what? You simply,like the rest of us, don’t know his IQ or skills? We know he was smart enough to go to college, worked in a library around books(libraries are typically where people who like to read hang out),we know he wrote a paper about writing in different handwriting styles,so safe to say, Ross wasn’t some drooling straight jacketed patient with a low IQ. By the way, I wasn’t saying Ross was as smart as John Nash,or had the same skills, but wanted to point out that People with the illness are capable of things requiring some ‘smarts’

Well, I’m reminded of what was discussed in another thread the other day: For me there is no positive indication that Z was particularly skilled at making ciphers. So, in the Ross context, this isn’t really a factor as far as I’m concerned.

If he was generally capable of performing semi-complex tasks in spite of whatever condition he may have suffered from – well, that’s pretty much what’s required, I think. As far as we know, at least.

But part of the problem, as I take it, is that it still remains unclear to what exact degree he was – let’s say – limited by his condition. And that’s back in court order territory, as I understand it. That people with mental illnesses of various kinds are capable of remarkable tasks, and for that matter capable of functioning normally for all intents and purposes – is beyond question. But it’s just as unquestionable that many people who suffer from mental illness can’t do this or that – like concentrate on a task to the degree required to carry out murderous schemes, or conduct a pretty coherent (all things said and done) campaign of letters to the papers. It’s all about individual circumstances and details – and those seem insufficiently known and documented in his particular case.

But it’s just as unquestionable that many people who suffer from mental illness can’t do this or that – like concentrate on a task to the degree required to carry out murderous schemes, or conduct a pretty coherent (all things said and done) campaign of letters to the papers. It’s all about individual circumstances and details – and those seem insufficiently known and documented in his particular case.

We know Ross demonstrated the ability and propensity to suddenly anger and charge at someone with a knife. This required no planning, which I think is pretty consistent with LHR and BRS. Z has a gun, sees a parked car with a couple in it, stops, shoots, leaves.

PH is somewhat similar, except that since Z was in Stine’s cab, Z needed a way to escape. Now, if he was staying in the area, had a car nearby, was familiar with available mass transit, this may not have required a lot of planning.

LB is, as always, the outlier, but the planning there really just involved sewing the outfit. Since we know Z could sit down and meticulously write ciphers, paying great attention to detail, I think we can assume he could probably do something like sew a simple hood and bib.

The letters and cards were sporadic – one here, one there, long gaps between some of them. My point is, there was no comprehensive "plan" Z was following. What he did was a series of mostly spontaneous, mostly random, impulsive acts, that we now string together to form a mosaic. But as Z was committing his crimes and writing his letters, it seems more like sudden impulse and instant gratification. In other words, he didn’t have to hold a specific thought in his head for more than a couple days (to write codes or sew a simple outfit) and in most cases, for not more than an hour (to kill and call.)

This might also help explain why his kill count was off – he could probably remember his actual kills, which were in the 5-6 range, but he couldn’t remember what he’d written to LE.

Ross’ illness and death coincide well with the Z timeline, and also, the brazenness of PH could be accounted for by his illness getting worse. All speculation of course, but unless/until we can see what his medical records say, including when he was hospitalized, I don’t see anything yet that disqualifies Ross as a primary suspect.

Well, perhaps.

Personally, I don’t think it’s likely he lost count of his kills to the extent that by 1971 he was claiming more than 17 (and 37 a few years later!). He gradually upped the count for the duration of his most active period at what you could describe as a "reasonable" rate. And he didn’t mess up, IIRC, in terms of suddenly lowering the count again compared to what he had claimed previously.

Not in the letters which can’t be disputed at any rate.

As for the Ross attack, that sounds like an unstable person losing it to me. Zodiac’s attacks are nothing like that for my money. There’s an element of risk taking there, an element of devil-may-care, even – but he operates like someone who is very much in control of himself. Even at LB he does this, I think – in spite of being nervous, or agitated, or excited, or whatever he actually was.

If anything I’ve always felt his attacks – all of them – smack of someone who had planned to do more or less what he ended up doing. Not in that exact fashion, but in a similar fashion – using those means, targeting those areas, looking for that type of victim, etc.

I agree that there’s no reason to think he had some kind of master plan which directed what he did in every detail – that’s my impression too. What I mean by "coherent" is two things: He is coherent in the letters themselves. There is very little outlandish "craziness" in them (compare his letters to those of Berkowitz, for instance). And he always gets his point across: There’s nothing really incomprehensible there.

And secondly that there is – for me, at least – some sort of internal coherence in the whole series. He regularly refers either to his previous communications – or to comments made by LE in the press. He doesn’t shoot off wildly – it’s either some form of challenge, or some form of response.

For the sake of keeping things where they belong (so to speak), I should of course stress that the above is largely general and only to a limited extent relevant to Ross as a possible suspect: As I see it (which was the core of the post above), we don’t know enough about him to say all that much about how his mental condition fits in with the known evidence in the Z case.

Nothing Z did is clearly incompatible with what we know about Ross, and it was not my intention to suggest this either. The basic tune seems to be: We just don’t know. So, until more is known – well, there you have it.