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Descriptions by Riverside librarian and Lorrain DeGroat

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(@replaceablehead)
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On the one hand her apparent job description would appear to make her a more credible witness. But why is her job so vaguely described in the article?

I’m concerned that the description is just a little too good to be true, it describes the cliche’ image of Ross that’s been woven by the librarians. Those images have stuck, even though we don’t really know if Ross dressed like that all the time. It’s just a bit on the nose.

 
Posted : April 4, 2019 5:45 am
(@neonmaniac80)
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On the one hand her apparent job description would appear to make her a more credible witness. But why is her job so vaguely described in the article?

I’m concerned that the description is just a little too good to be true, it describes the cliche’ image of Ross that’s been woven by the librarians. Those images have stuck, even though we don’t really know if Ross dressed like that all the time. It’s just a bit on the nose.

Or maybe it’s just an honest eyewitness description.

At least as far as from what I’ve read, it seems that everyone who has described Ross has basically described him as wearing those clothes practically all the time. We more or less already know that. I mean, I guess we could say that the description is cliched, or it could just be what they observed on a daily basis.

It appears to me at least that information is pretty buried, unless we’re searching within this particular website and especially what he drove, she would’ve had to engage in some pretty deep searching within this website to find that. I’m far from convinced that she did that. I’d assume that 90% of Zodiac killing interested researchers have no idea what type of car Ross Sullivan drove.

As far as the images sticking, would you agree that Ross Sullivan is generally seen as a minor suspect to the point that you actually have to look within the search bar for his name in most Zodiac related websites? The History Channel special was the only mainstream program to even mention his name, as far as I’m aware. It’s so far always been aiming at Arthur Leigh Allen or Richard Gaikowski, Lawrence Kane, etc.

 
Posted : April 4, 2019 3:20 pm
tupney, tupney and tupney reacted
(@neonmaniac80)
Posts: 23
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Topic starter
 

On the one hand her apparent job description would appear to make her a more credible witness. But why is her job so vaguely described in the article?

I’m concerned that the description is just a little too good to be true, it describes the cliche’ image of Ross that’s been woven by the librarians. Those images have stuck, even though we don’t really know if Ross dressed like that all the time. It’s just a bit on the nose.

It could be Ross Sullivan, or it could not be. It sounds incredibly convincing however. If so, it places a person who looks very close to Ross Sullivan at a 2nd Zodiac site, maybe not directly on the night of the killing, but still places that description there for whatever reason. Then we look at the rest of the evidence, details, etc. It’s a very good lead IMO. At the least.

 
Posted : April 4, 2019 3:22 pm
 Khys
(@khys)
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I agree. I’m for contacting her and putting a photo lineup in front of her if she’s willing. It needs to not just be photos of Ross.

 
Posted : April 4, 2019 5:24 pm
(@neonmaniac80)
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I agree. I’m for contacting her and putting a photo lineup in front of her if she’s willing. It needs to not just be photos of Ross.

Absolutely. People other than myself would be more informed on that process than I. Haha

 
Posted : April 4, 2019 5:26 pm
morf13
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This is a pretty interesting. The stranger’s story has some similarity to how The Most Dangerous Game begins. I too would be interested in a photo line up put in front of her with Ross’s pic mixed in.

As would I. She doesn’t seem very difficult to reach, as I’ve discovered her address, bankruptcy history, etc with a simple search. I wonder if she would be receptive.

Why not just email her a picture with a small message – Sorry to bother you, but this is a man who was a suspect in the Zodiac killings. Does he look like the man you saw that night?

I think a photo lineup would be good idea. Or phrase the question, "do any of these men look like they might be the man you saw"

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : April 4, 2019 7:30 pm
tupney, tupney and tupney reacted
morf13
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Barbara Van Tomme: Riverside College librarian described Ross Sullivan as “I have a picture of him in my mind…he was very quiet. I never (gasping slightly) I never felt at ease around him. He just wasn’t friendly. Asked whether he missed work directly after the Cheri Jo Bates murder: “We noticed that he wasn’t there and I… was there rumors or speculation? “The reference librarian, Jo Ann Bailey, she brought up Ross, wondering if Ross was a suspect. Do you know why she brought that name up? “I guess in her mind, he struck a nerve with her…because of his demeaner. Do you remember his attire? His typical clothing? How did he dress? “Like, an Army jacket. One of the longer, long Army jackets. Big Army boots. That’s how he dressed, mostly every day."

From the archived Riverside folders: “There are a half a dozen of us who agree on a suspect Ross Sullivan as the Riverside killer of Cheri Jo Bates.” Going forward, Ross is listed as “unsocial, didn’t talk to anyone…huge guy. He was not around the day after the murder. It wasn’t until a few weeks that he reappeared back at school, and he had on a totally new set of clothes.

As described by Lorraine Osuna DeGroat in mysterious and alleged encounter with who she thought was the Zodiac killer at Lake Herman Road:
“The Zodiac had already killed the couple in Berryessa and Blue Rock Springs by then,” she said. “We were all told to stay away from that place, but, we were 16, and we decided to drive out to Lake Herman Road at 10:30 or so at night.”

She and the boy, who later became her first husband, were in the back seat, while her cousin was driving with the girl he later married in the front passenger seat, DeGroat said.

“We knew we shouldn’t have been there. Had never been there before. It’s desolate,” she said. “The four of us were in the car, and we were a couple of miles in on that road, and there’s this guy in the middle of the road, in a big, bulky trench coat or army jacket that reached to his knees, and he’s in the middle of the road, waving his arms, trying to get us to stop.”

DeGroat said that having little choice short of hitting the man, her cousin, Henry, slowed as if preparing to stop.
The man approached the passenger side window which her cousin’s girlfriend began rolling down.
“He said ‘I need some help,’” DeGroat said. “‘I was out on the lake with my girlfriend and I can’t find her. I was hoping you’d help me find her.’”
DeGroat describes the man as in his middle-30s to early 40s, with blondish, short-cropped hair and horn-rimmed glasses. His pants were dark, and his shoes may also have been dark army boots, she said.

“I started kicking the back of his seat and whispering loudly, ‘No! Don’t!,” she said.
The man approached the passenger side window which her cousin’s girlfriend began rolling down.
“We knew this was trouble,” she said. “He was too calm and completely dry. So, Henry says, ‘OK,’ and makes like he’s going to pull over, eased around the guy and then took off like a bat out of hell.”

As they sped by, they saw a small car, possibly a Volkswagen, empty, on the side of the road about a half mile from where they’d encountered the man, DeGroat said. The group didn’t stop until they reached the Benicia Police Department, she said.

I mean, I’m as skeptical as the next man, but this seems to be a description of Ross Sullivan, as well as the car that he drove. I was a strong advocate of further research into Lawrence Kane (and still am) for quite some time based on a number of factors, but Ross Sullivan is just too difficult to ignore after reading or listening to these descriptions.

What do you think?

Very interesting info

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : April 4, 2019 7:30 pm
CuriousCat
(@curiouscat)
Posts: 1328
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On the one hand her apparent job description would appear to make her a more credible witness. But why is her job so vaguely described in the article?

I’m concerned that the description is just a little too good to be true, it describes the cliche’ image of Ross that’s been woven by the librarians. Those images have stuck, even though we don’t really know if Ross dressed like that all the time. It’s just a bit on the nose.

What the librarian in the recent Zodiac television show says doesn’t line up with what this librarian told Dave Peterson years ago. She said Ross wore the same "long sleeved wool or flannel shirt" day after day, winter or summer.

https://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1452&u=14945813

https://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1453&u=14945813

 
Posted : April 4, 2019 7:45 pm
morf13
(@morf13)
Posts: 7527
Member Admin
 

On the one hand her apparent job description would appear to make her a more credible witness. But why is her job so vaguely described in the article?

I’m concerned that the description is just a little too good to be true, it describes the cliche’ image of Ross that’s been woven by the librarians. Those images have stuck, even though we don’t really know if Ross dressed like that all the time. It’s just a bit on the nose.

What the librarian in the recent Zodiac television show says doesn’t line up with what this librarian told Dave Peterson years ago. She said Ross wore the same "long sleeved wool or flannel shirt" day after day, winter or summer.

https://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1452&u=14945813

https://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1453&u=14945813

Maybe he wore the shirt under his jacket?

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : April 4, 2019 7:48 pm
CuriousCat
(@curiouscat)
Posts: 1328
Noble Member
 

On the one hand her apparent job description would appear to make her a more credible witness. But why is her job so vaguely described in the article?

I’m concerned that the description is just a little too good to be true, it describes the cliche’ image of Ross that’s been woven by the librarians. Those images have stuck, even though we don’t really know if Ross dressed like that all the time. It’s just a bit on the nose.

What the librarian in the recent Zodiac television show says doesn’t line up with what this librarian told Dave Peterson years ago. She said Ross wore the same "long sleeved wool or flannel shirt" day after day, winter or summer.

https://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1452&u=14945813

https://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1453&u=14945813

Maybe he wore the shirt under his jacket?

Certainly possible, but she was pretty specific, seems she would have mentioned an army jacket. One other thing, people seem to fixate on Ross wearing army boots, but the heel print at the murder scene was not from a boot but from low cut military dress shoes.

 
Posted : April 4, 2019 7:53 pm
CuriousCat
(@curiouscat)
Posts: 1328
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I think a photo lineup would be good idea. Or phrase the question, "do any of these men look like they might be the man you saw"

We were discussing this woman involved in the LHR incident over at TV’s forum not long ago and I believe Sandy tried or is trying to contact her.

Sandy? You out there girl?

 
Posted : April 4, 2019 7:54 pm
Quicktrader
(@quicktrader)
Posts: 2598
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Regarding the ‘incident’ described by ‘DeGroat’:

The timing of it is quite nice…about half an hour before the murder had happened (same day?). A blondish man wearing horn-rimmed glasses is trying to stop four kids at Lake Herman Road. This could very well have been Z. Also the description is a nice match.

Mrs. Peggie YOUR had a similar encounter only about twenty minutes later: She described a mysterious man with dark clothes standing nearby the ‘racoon hunters’. The clothing that was described by DeGroat could be a rain coat, some type of hunting gear.

If that encounter had actually happened, it is very likely that both, Peggie Your as well as Mrs. DeGroat had actually seen the same person near the scene plus matching the Paul Stine sketch, which also Kathleen Johns had recognized. Thus, this specific Z encounter is unique. Besides Hartnell, Mageau, Johns and Tarbox, possibly other people, DeGroat could be one of only a handful people who had met ‘Z’ in action.

The type clothing, however, could place Z closer to the racoon hunters: IF Z was with them, the whole evening, then started to shoot people, they could have known Z as a friend….possibly still know his identity…

some old stuff regarding the Peggie Your encounter (digged it out from 2013..):
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1081&p=12833&hilit=owen+hunt+gun#p12833

BTW, I can’t see even the slightest connection between RS an the area of Lake Herman. Not the slightest. Also think that RS should be kept in the RS section instead of spreading his name all over the board whenever possible without giving any additional information why he should have been there. Didn’t rule him out but just don’t see him being Z (handwriting, lack of being stocky built, not connection to North Bay area, name doesn’t fit the my-name-is cipher etc.). He is interesting but far away from being Z, at least so far. So please, please no spamming the whole board with RS…thanks.

QT

Oh and here to find the TIMELINE of Lake Herman road, just so it won’t be forgotten :D

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtop … 1&start=40

*ZODIACHRONOLOGY*

 
Posted : April 5, 2019 2:27 am
(@neonmaniac80)
Posts: 23
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

Regarding the ‘incident’ described by ‘DeGroat’:

The timing of it is quite nice…about half an hour before the murder had happened (same day?). A blondish man wearing horn-rimmed glasses is trying to stop four kids at Lake Herman Road. This could very well have been Z. Also the description is a nice match.

Mrs. Peggie YOUR had a similar encounter only about twenty minutes later: She described a mysterious man with dark clothes standing nearby the ‘racoon hunters’. The clothing that was described by DeGroat could be a rain coat, some type of hunting gear.

If that encounter had actually happened, it is very likely that both, Peggie Your as well as Mrs. DeGroat had actually seen the same person near the scene plus matching the Paul Stine sketch, which also Kathleen Johns had recognized. Thus, this specific Z encounter is unique. Besides Hartnell, Mageau, Johns and Tarbox, possibly other people, DeGroat could be one of only a handful people who had met ‘Z’ in action.

The type clothing, however, could place Z closer to the racoon hunters: IF Z was with them, the whole evening, then started to shoot people, they could have known Z as a friend….possibly still know his identity…

some old stuff regarding the Peggie Your encounter (digged it out from 2013..):
http://zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.p … gun#p12833

BTW, I can’t see even the slightest connection between RS an the area of Lake Herman. Not the slightest. Also think that RS should be kept in the RS section instead of spreading his name all over the board whenever possible without giving any additional information why he should have been there. Didn’t rule him out but just don’t see him being Z (handwriting, lack of being stocky built, not connection to North Bay area, name doesn’t fit the my-name-is cipher etc.). He is interesting but far away from being Z, at least so far. So please, please no spamming the whole board with RS…thanks.

QT

Oh and here to find the TIMELINE of Lake Herman road, just so it won’t be forgotten :D

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1081&start=40

Are you speaking directly to me may I ask?

 
Posted : April 5, 2019 3:01 am
Quicktrader
(@quicktrader)
Posts: 2598
Famed Member
 

Not at all. Actually I am sitting in Budapest in front of my computer with my lovely dog, ready to go to sleep. Really, no intention to direct to you but I only read Ross Ross Ross everywhere, which is super annoying if you are like 99.9% sure that Z is somebody we haven’t mentioned, yet (except ‘Paul Knight’ possibly..and even THAT name doesn’t match the cipher..).

Your post was actually valuable, refreshing, but imo no need to connect it to Ross. Plenty of guys had crew-cut, horn-rimmed glasses that time.

QT

*ZODIACHRONOLOGY*

 
Posted : April 5, 2019 3:06 am
CuriousCat
(@curiouscat)
Posts: 1328
Noble Member
 

Regarding the ‘incident’ described by ‘DeGroat’:

The timing of it is quite nice…about half an hour before the murder had happened (same day?).

No, the Degroat incident happened several months after the LHR murders.

DeGroat said that three or four months later, she and her then-boyfriend, her cousin and his then-girlfriend decided it would be a good idea to go out to the murder site, despite knowing the killer was still at large.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/07/11/ … -the-tale/

 
Posted : April 5, 2019 3:49 am
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