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F.B.I. Files – Discussion

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Tahoe27
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A while back at zodiackiller.com ‘s message board we were discussing the F.B.I. files poster there brought up that at one point, some materials were to be redacted due to "executive order".

I thought it was an interesting subject. http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/1 … zotnqhdWSo


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : April 1, 2014 7:10 am
Seagull
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The extortion classification is because Zodiac said in his letters to the newspapers that if specific portions of his letters not were printed in the paper that he would kill people. That qualifies as extortion.

That’s not extortion, that’s blackmail. Some have even labelled Zodiac a domestic terrorist. I suppose he is in a way. But I cannot see how it could be classed as extortion because extortion defined in Law is: "The crime of obtaining money or some other thing of value by the abuse of ones office or authority."

In order for Zodiac’s crimes to be classified as extortion, he’d have to have tried to blackmail the city of San Francisco by demanding he be paid $x x x or there will be more deaths.

Saying "If you do not print this cipher on your front page I will go on a kill rampage" is just blackmail. Blackmail to get the Chronicle to do what he asks by using threats and intimidation.

WC read thread in the link that Tahoe provided. Pay particular attention to the posts that Greygost wrote. He was in law enforcement for more than 20 years and explains what I was attempting to say pretty well.

www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com

 
Posted : April 1, 2014 8:45 am
zodiphile
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Hi, Are you specifically talking about the section that starts here – http://vault.fbi.gov/The%20Zodiac%20Kil … %2006/view – around page 70?

Thats very interesting. Also, i think the letters that start on page 72, the handwriting is really of interest. After examining it closely, i guess it isn’t a match but at first glance, there are a lot of similarities to some of Z’s handwriting.

 
Posted : April 1, 2014 9:12 am
Welsh Chappie
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Read it, and still not having it lol.

I mean if that’s what the official classification was then that’s what it was. Blackmail and Extortion are two words for the same things almost and I always though the distinction being blackmail doesn’t always have to be used with the intent being to acquire payment or anything of value, ie, ‘Move away from the area of i’ll tell the neighbours your a convicted felon.’ That’s a form of blackmail. Extortion on the other hand is basically blackmail, but with the specific intent to obtain money or goods of value.

I could be wrong but that’s the way I always distinguished the two. Maybe the definition of Extortion, not the English definition, the Legalese definition, slightly differs between the States and UK.

Don’t get why they claim also that they had to label it something like extortion because the FBI wouldn’t and didn’t have jurisdiction unless a federal offence had been committed. Well, doesn’t multiple murder come under that category? Lol. I mean surely they could even push it and make a case for the suspect had crossed State lines to commit his crimes, excuse me, I mean ‘do his thing!’ Surely they could have received the pines card and took that as an indication that a killer had crossed State lines and thus automatic intervention of FBI?

I saw an agent on TV once and he was asked about Zodiac and does the FBI have any thoughts on the suspect identity, and the Agent responded and his response still makes me laugh to this day….

"No, this is the FBI, The Federal Bureau of Investigation, not Federal Bureau of Speculation." Very witty and comical response I thought :-)

"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.

 
Posted : April 1, 2014 9:33 am
Seagull
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I think it is a combination of the definition of extortion being refined, for lack of a better word, in the last 40 years and the differences between the laws in the US and UK that makes it difficult to understand. The postal system is federal even if a letter never leaves the state it was mailed from, so that leaves a little wiggle room for the Feds to involve themselves. Ultimately, had Zodiac been captured any legal matters would have been dealt with by the state of California not the Feds.

I was trying to find law cases from 1969 that might illustrate extortion a little better but that stuff is so dry. It’s late here and reading it was putting me to sleep.

www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com

 
Posted : April 1, 2014 9:53 am
zodiphile
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If a person kills someone in California (kills them in CA and leaves the body in CA) and then drives to Oklahoma, i don’t think the FBI has jurisdiction. I believe a person has to take someone across a state line or kill people in different states for the FBI to get involved (this may not be accurate just my belief). However, if you look at the term ‘extortion’ it includes making written threats of physical harm. Zodiac obviously did threaten to physically harm people if the newspaper didn’t publish his letters. So, in a technical and legal sense, what zodiac did in his letter writing campaign can be viewed as extortion!

 
Posted : April 1, 2014 9:55 am
morf13
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If a person kills someone in California (kills them in CA and leaves the body in CA) and then drives to Oklahoma, i don’t think the FBI has jurisdiction. I believe a person has to take someone across a state line or kill people in different states for the FBI to get involved (this may not be accurate just my belief). However, if you look at the term ‘extortion’ it includes making written threats of physical harm. Zodiac obviously did threaten to physically harm people if the newspaper didn’t publish his letters. So, in a technical and legal sense, what zodiac did in his letter writing campaign can be viewed as extortion!

One addition, if Zodiac commited a crime on federal property, say a military base, or post office parking lot, then the FBI may very well have stepped in

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : April 1, 2014 5:32 pm
morf13
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Hi, Are you specifically talking about the section that starts here – http://vault.fbi.gov/The%20Zodiac%20Kil … %2006/view – around page 70?

Thats very interesting. Also, i think the letters that start on page 72, the handwriting is really of interest. After examining it closely, i guess it isn’t a match but at first glance, there are a lot of similarities to some of Z’s handwriting.

I believe, that the writing starting on page 72, belongs to the Father of Jane Webster. She was the girl that was killed in the Boston area, and that Penn tried to link to z.

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : April 1, 2014 5:34 pm
Welsh Chappie
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I still don’t get that claim. Please forgive me in advance, being British I don’t know the specifics of The FBI’s in’s and out’s. So what do people/legislature’s mean when they say the FBI has no jurisdiction until certain criteria are met? The FBI isn’t a State based agency, it’s a National one so surely this means it’s jurisdiction is anywhere on United States soil? As far as I have been able to tell, the FBI doesn’t need to wait for a ransom demand before it will get involved in an abduction because it’s down to the Law Enforcement Agency in the specific town or City to request the FBI’s involvement if they feel they need the resources so that in itself seems to suggest that jurisdiction is not something that the FBI as an agency can only gain once a kidnapped individual has been taken across State Lines for example, they can simply be asked to help without needing to justify any sort of jurisdiction claim.

Also, doesn’t the FBI have an agent in every town and city in America? It just seems weird to me that The FBI, a sort of National Police Force for the United States, has no jurisdiction anywhere in the Nation unless someone takes someone else from one State to another? Police can’t pursue felon’s across boarders and State Lines, that’s what activates the FBI and gives them jurisdiction! Just don’t get it lol.

I suppose in leymans’s terms then, it looks to someone like me uneducated in specifics of US Law that the Attorney General in the 1900’s created what we know today as the FBI with the intent to combat National Crime and Crime Groups that are not confined by the border of a State and so the FBI was created to police America on a National Scale, but has no jurisdiction anywhere to act as such, until someone like Tim McVeigh rears his ugly head.

How does it work then, anyone able to tell me? Is the Federal Bureau of Investigation just a fancy name for Serious Crimes Unit?

"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.

 
Posted : April 13, 2014 6:25 am
morf13
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The FBI handles federal crimes, crimes that cross state lines, crimes on govt properties,extortion,etc

The FBI does not have field offices in every city in the USA, they are located in big cities, or regionally

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : April 13, 2014 6:36 am
Seagull
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http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/faqs Read this WC.

www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com

 
Posted : April 13, 2014 6:43 am
Welsh Chappie
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The FBI handles federal crimes, crimes that cross state lines, crimes on govt properties,extortion,etc

The FBI does not have field offices in every city in the USA, they are located in big cities, or regionally

Ok, thanks. It seems my initial assumption was incorrect when I said the Bureau was a National Police Force of sorts. On the FBI website it states in the FAQ section:

Q. Is the FBI a type of national police force?

A. No. The FBI is a national security organization that works closely with many partners around the country and across the globe to address the most serious security threats facing this nation.

Thought the CIA dealt with homeland security and terror threats etc. Anyway, lets leave this discussion there cause it ain’t really relevant is it? I just asked out of curiosity more than anything.

Anyway, any idea when the FOIA backlog will be significantly reduced or even cleared altogether? The last two successful responses I received took 6 months. That is, even for a period where they have delays due to backlog of requsts, still a fairly good response waiting time. I’ve heard of people requesting a single document and waiting around 32 months for the requested document.

"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.

 
Posted : April 13, 2014 9:32 am
duckking2001
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Blackmail is a form of Extortion, but Extortion can be something other than Blackmail.

Extortion is using a threat to get someone to do something that they don’t want to do. Blackmail usually involves a legal situation or an exchange of money. Threatening to kill someone during a robbery is a form of blackmail, but the crime of aggravated robbery carries a higher charge so it will be levied instead. Threatening to kill some nonspecific people if the newspaper doesn’t print your letter probably isn’t Blackmail since it is not a formal negotiation.

The reason that the FBI filed the Zodiac case under Extortion is because that is the general legal category that they are investigating. It’s not the job of the FBI to file charges against an individual, nor was there anyone in this case to charge, as we all know very well. So there is not cause to outline a specific law that was being broken.

The CIA deals with intel. gathering related to international crimes, which may cross over into domestic. Domestic security was formerly the job of the FBI and intel. from the NSA, but now it’s split between the DHS.

As for when the FBI will clear out their backlog of FOIA requests: Never. haha. They probably have like one intern working the desk on the weekend, they only do it because they legally have to.

 
Posted : April 13, 2014 9:40 am
Welsh Chappie
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"The reason that the FBI filed the Zodiac case under Extortion is because that is the general legal category that they are investigating. It’s not the job of the FBI to file charges against an individual, nor was there anyone in this case to charge."

Ooook, so the FBI isn’t filing charges against anyone, nor was there anyone to file against. Well I think they should be more specific as to their intent then. The documents should state…

To: Dir of FBI.

From: Sac, Sacramento, CA.

Subject: Zodiac; Hypothetical extortion.

"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.

 
Posted : April 13, 2014 4:35 pm
duckking2001
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Also keep in mind that mostly these are not internal memos between the FBI, but they are responses to LE agencies about information that they requested from the FBI, so they don’t always include all relevant information. For all we know it could have been SFPD or whomever who told the FBI that they were pursuing an extortion case, not the other way around.

I don’t really see the need to get so hung up on the wording, it’s just for filing purposes.

 
Posted : April 15, 2014 8:20 am
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